Doom & Gloom in the Jazz World
Part III
D&G 1 : D&G 2 : D&G 3 : D&G 4 : D&G 5 : D&G 6 : D&G 7 : D&G 8 : D&G 9
The following controversial email came as a result of this news item :-
14/01/08 - Mart Rodger states the obvious, but maybe not to the powers that be - Dear Fred, I have been following news clips from the various shows and events in Liverpool so far to do with Liverpool City of Culture. I haven't seen any mention of The Merseysippi Jazz Band and I hope they will not be missed out as it is my opinion they have contributed so much to the jazz revival in the U.K.
20/01/08
Dear Fred, Unfortunately, and I must be honest and sincere about this, I am not at all surprised that Jazz has been more or less left out of the Capital of Culture celebrations. For a long time now I have noticed just how unpopular jazz is seemingly becoming. I know that on the surface this seems to be not the case, with regular sessions being well attended, but the fact of the matter is that within any given area you will see the same faces turning up to watch different bands on different nights. For example, I can play in Llangollen on a Sunday, Wirral on a Tuesday and Wednesday, Liverpool on a Thursday and New Brighton on the next Sunday and I will see quite a few of the same people at each gig. In other words, there are no new faces turning up anywhere!
Another thing that is not helping is how musicians are treated by certain members of the audience. I myself have been a victim of this along with countless others. At the end of a gig people will come up to you and say something stupid like; "Your solo in Bourbon St Parade was rubbish, wasn't it", or "Chris Barber never played it like that" and "I wish you'd stick to the ensemble playing, I hate all these solos" and worst of all "They wouldn't have done that in New Orleans!". Rock musicians and orchestral players do not have to suffer these
imbeciles, so why do we? I remember one of our internationally renown players being lambasted for not wearing a tie! This twit in the audience actually got up at the end of the session to tell him off for that. It wasn't as if the rest of the band were dressed for the occasion anyway, and he was doing the gig as a favour too (I think he only charged them £50 for it). Certain people in the audience will deliberately try to cause trouble by nit-picking and I, along with a great many other players are simply tired of it. They are stuck in this New Orleans mentality and it has almost banged the final nail into the coffin of Jazz in Britain. It's a very sad story indeed. We should look to the rest of Europe, (Holland, France, Belgium etc) and Scandinavia if we want to see how it is really done. They get people of all ages listening to, and playing the music that we love. So why can't we do that here?
All the best Fred, and I hope you are well,
Andrew MacKenzie.
Ps. Sorry about my latest tirade, but I just pass on my own feelings and the feelings of others in the vague hope that someone will listen before it's too late.
21/01/08
Dear Fred,
With respect to Andrew Mackenzie's comments about no new blood coming to jazz; I have to say that it is not the experience here at the Blue Bell Inn, Halkyn. I agree that we get quite a few (and they are all very welcome) Jazz aficionados here who do the rounds (from Llangollen to the Wirral – we’re half-way in-between) and not surprising since Mad Ed's Hot 5 are really worth listening to. But, we have quite a few folks of all ages discovering top quality Trad Jazz for the first time, so much so that Mad Ed's Hot
5 are in demand for weddings and many other events.
It is not that unusual to hear the phrase “I didn’t know I liked Jazz” in the bar on occasions! There are many who quickly become hooked on the style, humour and energy that goes into our Jazz, not least from Mad Ed himself. For more information (and how to find us) check out our web-site or better still look up
Mad Ed’s Hot 5 on Fred’s www.jazznorthwest.co.uk
Regards
Steve Marquis
21/01/08 - Hi, Fred,
As you know we are well out of your area but I do keep an eye on your super site, especially the "News" page and must add a few comments following Andrew MacKenzie's comment on no new faces at jazz sessions. Here at the Harp in Albrighton, Shropshire we have had the trauma of the death of the owner and the uncertainty that caused but fortunately Tery's daughter took over the pub and wanted to keep the jazz going. We obviously need enough people in to make it viable for them to support the jazz and I am happy to say that most sessions we have reasonable attendances and many are packed out.... but at almost every session we have a few new faces or people returning who haven't been in for years. Obviously we have our hardcore of regulars but not everyone comes back to every session or we would need a venue as big as the Molineux (the Wolves ground for the uninitiated!). We do however find that some of the casual first timers go on to become regulars.
One other aspect which may be a little different to some venues is the number of single ladies, mostly ladies who have lost their husbands, who continue to come to the jazz and who we make a particular fuss of so they feel comfortable coming in to a pub on their own.. My theory is that you have to let people know where you are so one thing which takes up a lot of my time is the advertising of gigs. Like many clubs we can't afford extensive advertising ( the only one we pay for is "Jazz Guide") but I do try to get us in to all the local free papers, any free listings in magazines or on local radio (at least 8 stations), we have our own website with links to as many others as I can arrange and use whatever "Where can we go?" sites that I can find and we are in directories run by the local District and County Councils.
The time this takes is obviously worth it not only for attracting the audience but also letting bands know where we are, I rarely ring a band to ask them to play, they get in touch with me. Please don't think I am trying to tell anyone how to run a jazz club (I've still got a lot to learn!) but these are just a few ramblings as to why I think we are being modestly successful and look forward to the future with some considerable confidence.
Andrew's other comments do beg the question as to what sort of club he plays at! I don't think we have ever had someone as rude to musicians as Andrew states, in fact the opposite is true in that many people make a point of congratulating the band members at the end of a session. This may again be one of the reasons why bands like coming to the Harp. I do know there are some clubs who only have "New Orleans" music and insist on a six piece band with a banjo, no saxophone and no young musicians, which I find quite extraordinary as it is encouraging young musicians which will keep our jazz alive. Maybe it is this type of club which has the hyper-critical "fans" in the audience but even so I don't think we are anywhere near the "final nail into the coffin of Jazz in Britain" .
Regards, John & Marie Howell, Jazz Club 90, The Harp Hotel, Albrighton, Shropshire.
23/01/08 - Hi Fred,
I get a little concerned with negative talk, on the message board, of only the hardcore jazzers turning up at venues. I've not been to the Blue Bell Inn, but it sounds a fun venue in many other ways, and it all blends together to make a success. Steve Marquis seems to know how to get a great atmosphere, which brings out the best from the band and this, in turn, promotes a good crowd and spreading the word to bring in the new 'faces'. The pubs that have put on trad jazz, and failed, in my experience did it for the wrong reasons. There is more to it than just sticking a band in a corner, stocking the bar and waiting for the crowds to come in! As a new jazz promoter, about seven gigs a year over the past two years, I've learnt that it needs that little bit extra. We are sold out now, 100 cabaret style seats, over a month before our next gig! So, please Fred, play down this 'no new faces' business, there lots of them out there. We only see an odd one or two of our jazzers, when out and about at other venues, so we must have brought out over 90% new faces and they love their live music! Keep up the good work!
Norman at Heysham Heritage Hall
24/01/08 - Hi Fred,
I know just what Andy means about the loyal and exceptionally mobile audiences who attend local gigs but I feel that this should be used as a spring board to re-launch our local jazz scene. The problem with those in charge is that they see “small” audiences and discard us out of hand which may well lead to our eventual demise. What they should be doing is taking this very live and active area of the local music, and cultural, scene and promoting it to a new and wider public. It would be nice to think that they might read this – oh, there is another pig flying past!! – but I doubt that they will so we will have to try to “get at “them, and quickly, if we hope to join in the festivities.
As for the rest of Andy’s complaints, I know just what he means but, thankfully, those misguided audience members are not in the majority, nor are they real jazz fans. The biggest problem they pose is that they, with all their noise and bluster, are giving jazz a bad image and a bad name, in particular with the younger musical generation and that is where we hope to find the future audience and players for our music. Oh, and by the way, whilst after a classical concert people do not rise and berate the musicians, have you heard the classical equivalent of our “jazz experts” analyzing a concert in the bar during the interval??!!!!
Cheers for now, Dave Dixson
24/01/08 - Hi Fred,
I am a jazz fan not a jazz musician, but I feel moved to comment on certain points made by John Howell. Those audience members that he thinks are twits have obviously something to say but rarely get the opportunity due to the arrogance of jazz men who think they are the worlds experts on the subject. John is tired of the comments he hears and fans such as myself are tired of watching tired bands playing our music in a tired fashion. That is more likely the reason for the decline in audience numbers. The comment he overheard about the dislike of the solos and preferred the players to stick to ensemble--- well he can count me in on that one. Good jazz ensemble is for those bands who rehearse, and most of them don't. On Fred's page in the links there is an article on the definition of NO Jazz. It makes that very point that the best NO jazz is that which is mostly ensemble.. The foreword of a fakebook I have says the same thing. The jazz bands now however are made up of deps who are wiz at improvisation therefore the sets time is mostly endless rounds of solos having very little relationship with the tune. Some of us (listeners) like N. O jazz, and you could say we are stuck in the old NO music way of playing. That's why we go out in the evening hoping to hear some. Most of the jazz musicians are fed up with playing our music and it shows. Maybe they should find another outlet for their undeniable super instrumental skills.
When I want to hear good jazz I stay in with the CDs and listen to the Barber fifties stuff. So there!!! Presentation is important and I feel there is something missing from the story about none wearing of a tie. I too often see bands approaching the band stand in dribs and drabs clutching a pint of beer and looking as if they have been dragged through a hedge backwards. I saw one band at Doveholes (with all stars attached to their name) looking just as described and one musician thought it funny when kicked over his pint later. I could go on with a catalogue of complaints but I suppose most readers are bored silly by now.
I am available to advise the bands what the audience want to see and hear. What we want from the jazz bands may not be how they want to play our music.
Dave Fox
25/01/08 - Hi, Fred,
I must take Dave Fox to task when he refers to points made by me in my answer to Andrew Mackenzie. At no time do I refer to audiences as twits, nor say I am tired of comments from fans.... these were the comments of Andrew who I was disagreeing with because our perception of jazz as we hear it at the Harp is a very positive one, not one which requires criticism of fans or musicians. Perhaps Dave Fox would care to read all the comments on this subject and not complain about total inaccuracies!
Regards, John Howell (and Marie of course!)
25/01/09 - Hi Fred
I have checked my letter again and yes I made a mistake with my target.I should have commented on the letter by Andrew Mackenzie and not John Howell. Would you please apologise to John
Thank you - Dave Fox.
24/01/08 - Hi Fred,
Re., Andrew McKenzie's comments about jazz being left out of the Capital of Culture celebrations, and ignoring the obvious question, 'What's Ringo Starr playing on the roof of St. Georges Hall got to do with culture?. I'd have thought part of the organising committee's brief should have been to give a platform to minority interest
music, rather than just showcasing that which everybody knows about already. I'll leave it to others to argue whether jazz is quite as devoid of new blood as Andrew thinks, and merely point out that Amy Roberts, Richard and Russell Bennett, Adrian Cox, James Evans, Tom Kincaid and quite a few more, have nary a long tooth between them.
Instead I'd like to remind folks how little acknowledgement is given to traditional jazz, for its part in forming much of the music which will be highlighted during the Capital of Culture celebrations. Liverpool is nowadays remembered as the capital of
Merseybeat, and naturally, that fact will be made much of over the coming year.
However, it should also be remembered that practically every development in British popular music is traceable back to the trad jazz revival of the late 40s and 50s. If that revival had never happened, there would have been no Barber, Colyer et al to foster the growth of skiffle. If skiffle had never happened, neither would
Merseybeat, and neither for that matter would the revivals in blues or folk, or the whole panoply of world/roots music. What's more, the trad jazz circuit, as well as encouraging the growth of skiffle, provided an infrastructure of clubs and platforms upon which Merseybeat would eventually emerge.
It would be nice if the organising committee of the Capital of Culture forgot about the big draws for a while, and paid homage to the roots. Traditional jazz may have done nothing to elevate St Georges Hall, but it certainly helped elevate Ringo Starr onto its roof.
Cheers, - Fred McCormick.
25/01/08 - Hi Fred,
Let me pass on and make a few comments about a recent e-mail I received from my son Tony who is a very fine jazz trumpet player - yes, I would say that but it's true! I'd chatted to him about his playing with his rock and roll 'covers' band ('Scratch the Cat' -based in Norwich) and his 'pure' mainstream jazz band 'Pinstripe Suite'. Maybe Andrew MacKenzie, who I rate as an excellent musician, will find this interesting, though for some of our older jazzers, a little depressing and contrary to their perception of jazz music.
Tony played a gig with 'Scratch' at the Oceon Rooms in Gorleston near Great Yarmouth just recently. The sax player with the band and Tony swapped choruses in Dizzy, Eldridge, Parker mode, mingling with the dancers on the floor. "It's absolutely wonderful when you go into the crowd and start messing about" was the comment from the delighted promoter. "So it goes to show" said Tony, "If I'd stood at the front of the stage and played the same thing, the audience would have walked away muttering about "that old hat jazz stuff" . So there I was in spats, gaudy trousers, tasteless shirt blowing everything I would have blown at a jazz venue". "Jazz in its pure form is dead. Jazz in disguise played by people prepared to dress up and dance around like loonies is still alive". Now I'll bet that'll bring forth a few rants but I do recall John Coltrane having to walk along a bar counter playing his sax with a blues band, members of the early Ellington Bands trumpet section twiddling their horns round their little fingers, unbelievably over elaborate drum kits (Baby Dodds, Sonny Greer etc.) Louis Armstrongs
'muggin', clarinet players holding their instruments high above their heads whilst holding a high note, the list is endless.
I played at the Isle of Man Jazz Festival last year. Top band in the Traditional section was
'Dixi'. Traditional? You're joking!! Here was a great commercial group playing be-bop influenced New Orleans street music a la 'The Dirty Dozen', tuba player leaping around like a dervish. And the punters loved it! A Gentleman stood up to say that "The future of Jazz is safe in your hands". Well, maybe it is. Terry Brunt has the right idea with his scarf, beret and effervescent personality. Tommy Burton oozed conviviality and extrovert humour, Keith Pendlebury could 'sell' any gig - fine musicians all but with that extra ingredient, entertainment. And there was George Melly who was a law unto himself!
These guys usually had to form their own bands because as sidemen, their larger than life personalities annoyed the bandleaders they worked for. Musicians playing 'our' sort of jazz should remember that 'our' aging audience comes from a generation that listened to Charlie Drake singing "My Boomerang Won't Come Back", Tiny Tim and "Tiptoe through the Tulips" plus there was
"Itzy Bitsy, Teenie Weenie, Yellow Polkadot Bikini" and the vocals of Gene Pitney - dubbed 'The Singing Sheep' by his backing musicians. So trying to get 'our' audience going with a straight faced version of "Canal Street Blues" has
'em rushing for the exit. Of course there are 'specialist' jazz venues which cater for audiences who demand authentic New Orleans presented in what is deemed an 'Authentic New Orleans Manner' (less the pimps, back street muggers and drugged booze of the real
Storeyville) but they are few and far between. If a Jazz Band has a 'product', they have to sell it because after all, Jazz is an American music and "If ya got it - FLAUNT IT!!" is the American way.
Doom and Gloom? No - maybe the way forward for Jazz.
Ian Royle
25/01/08 - Dear Fred,
Here is my regretful but unchallengeable (try me) answer to Doom and Gloom. (I am a lifelong lover and player of jazz, by the way). I am sorry that we players, and lovers of jazz have no more chance of filling a venue, today, with paying and adoring customers than has a Mozart Quartet. I loved and played Mozart's music on piano, until I bought a saxophone and learned to love Charlie Parker. Now I love them both.
We musos scratch each other's eyes out, arguing over our preferred styles, "Bunk Johnson deserved his name" "I'll kill you for saying that". All to no avail. All of us trying to blame the decline in interest in jazz, among young people, on each other!
The answer is, sadly but unavoidably, so very, very simple.
Please bear with me.
When I was fourteen, and anxious to get my arms round the lovely females who attended the local Saturday-Night Dance, I had first to learn how to do the quickstep. Under the tuition of equally young but kindly girls I practiced, to records usually by Victor Sylvester. I heard one 78, not by him I discovered, which was so much easier to dance-to. It was by Sid Philips, and was called "Hors d'Oeuvres". I had discovered that magical thing called rhythm, or swing. Dancers had needed that "lift" since the turn of the century. Giving dancers that "lift" made millionaires out of Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, Glenn Miller and countless others. The need that dancers had for it continued during the so-called "Trad Revival", when "jiving" became almost an art-form. Chris Barber had the sense to cash-in on it, providing simple music which nevertheless swung like hell, and thus sold millions of records. High-minded young musos, even then, would argue at length as to the validity of certain styles of jazz; whether it was "pure " or not; or whether including a saxophone was "blasphemy". These silly arguments persist to this very day.
The crunch, for us, came slowly. The style of popular dancing changed. It changed into what I can only describe as a form of stamping, without the need to have a girl in your arms. This did not need the rhythm, or swing. It needed a pulse, I agree, but this could have been provided by a steam-hammer, with every bar containing eight even quavers, (the dreaded "8 Feel"), which can never swing, ever. Young people have been brought up with this, and simply do not understand the word swing, and would not find their feet tapping even if you played "Hors d'Oeuvres".
I wish I had an answer to the plain truth.
25/01/08
http://www.groovygrooves.com/video/charleston-dance-off
http://www.groovygrooves.com/video/the-ultimate-lindy-hop-showdown
Further to your doom and gloom page I have included links to two web pages, I suspect that we have forgotten what the roots of jazz are. It is it is my understanding that originally jazz was played to attract people to have a good time. The two above clips are perhaps what it's really all about, I really wish I was 18 again because that's what I'd like to be doing. This is what these young people are doing taking bits of other cultures and styles of dance in making an making them into their own. What is apparent from the two clips is that the audience are enjoying the music that dancers are enjoying the music and I bet the musicians are really having a good time it's very pleasing to hear the excitement of a good band, young people having a good time to the sort of music we all like.
And is a bit suspicious of people who think that there sort of music is the holy Grail, I really like traditional jazz band but that doesn't stop me listening to Alison Krauss, and the ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain. What I like is music that has fire enjoys itself and doesn't take itself too seriously. It often surprises may how readily people don't understand the relationship between dancing and music while these two clips show is that is that if it is a dead music it's having a very good funeral.
I once read that jazz was spelt when it first started out jass music but people kept rubbing out the j once music starts to intellectualise itself it loses something I think what these two clips indicate is that there is an audience, there is musicians the music itself can look after itself it won't ever go away it has underpinned all modern forms of music and probably more importantly all contemporary pop music. We owe a great debt to the musicians of New Orleans at the start of the century. Jazz is about emotion and feeling you can tell from these two clips that everyone is having a good time you'd go away from a gig like that buzzing its a long time dead I suspect.
Tony Scott and not yet retired and still enjoying traditional jazz
27/01/08 - Hello Fred
If it's any consolation to Andrew MacKenzie and others, I would suggest that for every complaining ignoramus in audiences there are at least five who wildly applaud many solos by bassists, banjoists and drummers and performances of Chimes Blues à la Chris Barber which are largely devoid of jazz/musical content. In fact we need all these people and as many others as we can attract to support jazz. I can't imagine anyone with a grain of nous attending a Spice Girls concert, but I bet those ladies aren't bothered as long as their audiences roll up.
Two thoughts from recent correspondence:
1) Did Louis Armstrong sell out by playing all those solos?
2) If jazz is 100 years old and Gillespie, Eldridge and Parker were at the height of their powers 60 years ago, should they be considered traditionalists?
Best wishes to all. - John Muskett
27/01/08 - Hi Fred,
I have not written to you for a bit so here is my 2 euros. My experience of playing to people who have never heard jazz is that after their first exposure to it they are pleasantly surprised. They soon get into the 4/4 tempo and it must seem a refreshing change to the relentless 8 feel. They will come up at the end saying what a pleasure it is not having to shout to be heard and they must hear some more. Unfortunately these are private functions and non of the audiences seem to turn up at jazz clubs. Maybe they feel it is too big a leap.
Regarding the letter from Dave Fox I find his attitude fascinating. The best N. O. jazz is mostly ensemble ? I am not going to get bogged down in the old arguments, we all know that most N. O bands took solos and I think that to listen to a band playing ensemble music all evening would soon bore most of the audience and to say ' what we want from a jazz band may not be what they want to play' and ' musicians fed up of playing our music' sounds a bit head in the sand to me. As for being available to advise bands on what to play, how arrogant can you get ? Bands aren't perfect and some times their presentation leaves something to be desired but the blinkered and narrowminded views of some ' fans ' can be just as damaging. I suggest that Mr. Fox stays home with Mr. Barber, it will not be so traumatic. Moe Green.
31/01/08 -
We aren't brilliant by any means but we rarely receive anything but compliments from people who take the trouble to come up and talk to us at gigs - many of whom recall seeing Chris Barber in the '50's, or at least listening to his records, and how our music takes them back. So perhaps we don't meet these purist fanatics that seem so to beset some of the writers to Doom and Gloom. Our style is maybe a bit eclectic for those folks. But we do meet people who, as one of your correspondents said - 'didn't know what jazz was and didn't know they were going to like it before hearing us play'. That certainly adds to the pleasure I get from playing. And if people get up and dance so much the better - Jazz is a two way thing and an audience enjoying itself makes us try harder and I do think we play better for it.
Steve Lister - Lune Valley Vintage Jazz Band
31/01/08 -
Dear Fred, I am faintly surprised
that my recent letter doesn't seem to have rung a sad bell with your contributors.
The mass "popularity" of jazz and swing over
many lucrative decades (for some astute performers) has NEVER had much to
do with MUSIC, or any understanding or appreciation of quality or
creativity, by a paying audience. Does anyone think that the screaming teenagers
who who threw their underwear at Artie Shaw (and made him a millionaire)
did so because he knew how to play the dominant-seventh chord in the fourth bar
of the many 12-bar blues tunes he recorded? Were kids 60 years ago so much
more discerning and intelligent than today's kids? Come off it! There are
50-year-old kids today who who would be at your throat if you told them
that Ringo Starr was a crap drummer! (Ringo himself, to his credit, would tell
them to listen to Buddy Rich. He knows the score, but is sensibly happy with his
millionaire's life).
The terrible truth, which seems to be difficult
to grasp for some jazz musos and fans is that 95% of all audiences like
what they like for reasons which have little to do with musical quality.
They never have. It's the same today with "pop music". Nothing
has changed. Nor will it ever. The elderly audiences at Trad jazz clubs today go
there in appreciation of the STYLE of music they loved when it was THE THING in
their youth, and when they danced to it, if they could jive! Why should
their children like it?
The need for a swinging rhythm no longer
exists for young dancers today, sadly for us!
Allan Bentham.
31/01/08 - Hi Fred,
Oh dear, Andrew McKenzie calls some of his punters imbeciles, I hope they don't read his piece about what he thinks of some of the bums on jazz seat at gigs, he may find that they stop coming and tell others the same, I have had some stupid and rude remarks from some of my listeners on my Sunday Lunchtime session in Lancaster but I bite my tongue and take it in my stride, they may upset you but they are there listening and drinking every Sunday, that keeps me and in particular the landlord very happy, I want to keep my gig and he wants to sell drinks, that's what its all about.
And of course sometimes what they say can be positive and useful, I remember when I was starting out I was clarinet playing with a band, this guy came to me and asked if he could have a word, he was a rock musician, he said he did not want to be rude but he had some advice for me, I was ready for be told off, he said you are pointing your instrument at the floor, you don't look at the audience, in fact you look like you should be sat behind the drummer, I was upset and annoyed but over the next week I
realised he had a point and the next week I was more positive, but the bloke never came again, but he changed me for the better with that statement.
Barrie Marshall
31/01/08 - Hello Fred,
I am wondering why there is so much hostility to what is, after all, merely an observation. Yes, I play to packed houses regularly, but I also have played in places where only about eight or ten people have bothered to turn up. I have genuine concerns for the music and my gripe is NOT born out of some petty disregard for audiences in general. I enjoy playing and I make sure that this comes across to the audience. I am not arrogant in the least, I don't think that I am a "leading authority" on Jazz, I even have a low opinion of my own playing and I certainly don't play in a "tired" fashion. I ALWAYS put 110% into my playing except when I'm ill (I suffer very badly with arthritis and also have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) when I ONLY put a mere 100% effort in. I always try my best, and I also expect the same commitment from those around me.
As for audiences; yes, they are always most complimentary, but as always it is just the odd one who ruins it. You can get 99 people coming up to you after a gig and telling you how much they enjoyed it, but it only takes just one to say something really stupid and thoughtless to upset the applecart. Yes, most of the time you ignore them but it still effects you. Some people ignore the good and focus on the bad and it is these people I take issue with. I can say with hand on heart that some of the best audiences are to be found in North Wales, Southport (The Shrimper is a great, friendly venue and the Freshfield Hotel is also superb) and also Lancashire and the Lake District are good places to play. But what must not be forgotten is that if you don't go and see a band then don't expect them to still be there next week. Residencies are very hard to come by and getting harder to find every year. You have to be realistic about the future prospects of Jazz in Britain (and I'm not talking about the odd pub here and there that gets good crowds), we are on a knife edge here. I can see a time in the future, maybe in the next 10 or 15 years, when there will be almost no jazz to be found on a local level.
How someone can have the nerve to say that musicians are arrogant when he clearly prefers to stay at home and listen to crusty old records is beyond me. What is being forgotten here is that the musicians on the records were young men when those recordings were made. Those same people are still playing now, they are all old men now, is it any wonder they are tired looking?
Crikey, if you had been playing the same tunes for nigh on 60 years wouldn't you feel a bit fed up. Look at Humphrey Lyttelton! He's had a long
career in music, well over 60 years now. How often has he been heard to play "Skeleton in the Cupboard",
"Hoppin' Mad" or (dare I say it) "Bad Penny Blues" in even the last twenty years? He has progressed and his audience has grown up with him, indeed he must be one of the most prolific composers in British Jazz now. Imagine that you were a comedian and had to tell the same jokes at every performance for 60 years, or that perhaps you were an artist and, despite your protestations, you were forced to paint the same picture all the time. Would anyone hold up their hand and say "Yes, I'd love to do that for the next 60 odd years please". Give some thought for the musicians, let them play what they want to play in the way they want to play it and just be glad that the music even exists at all.
Thanks Fred, you're a brick.
Ps. It was very kind of Ian Royle to say that he thought well of me as a musician and I would like to take this opportunity to say that it was most encouraging and heart-felt specially coming from someone I regard (along with George Galway, Dave
Dixson, Dave Lee, Terry Perry, Jon
Critchley and Tony Carter plus a couple of others) as being one of my local idols. Great men and great and exciting players all of them.
Andrew MacKenzie
02/02/08 - Hi Fred,
Reading Andrew MacKenzie's latest contribution, I was reminded of the Zoot Sims quote from the time of the first moon landing. He said, "Hell, we can put a man on the moon and I'm still playing Indiana."
Keith Allcock.
11/02/08 -
Just to show that it's not all doom and gloom in the world of traditional jazz, I've put an article on the site about the successful rise of Boston Spa Jazz Club. Well worth a read.
Fred Burnett
26/11/09 -
'DOOM AND GLOOM' - AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT
Peter De Bont
Joining a local trad jazz outfit was a small step from there. One of its founders living only a couple of streets away and me being the sole banjo player in the village may also have contributed.
My first steps were with a classical six-piece dixieland band (never a waistcoat or a boater in sight, though!), of which the youngest (an absolutely brilliant trumpet player) was only 16! I was 22 or thereabouts at the time - and the trad boom of the late Seventies that lasted well into the Eighties had just started, if I'm not mistaken.
After several years of that, I wanted a bit more of a challenge, musically speaking. Playing trad can be good fun, but harmonically it tends to become rather stale after a while.
In my next band, six out of seven (eight, with the sound engineer counted in) were well under 30, too. We specialised in a mix of trad with a "modern" gloss - think Alex Welsh, for instance, in terms of furious "swing" - with some Latin and early bop thrown in for good measure.
The "trad" bit, however, was recurring subject of a never-ending (and never resolved, come to that) "style" debate, since the majority wasn't too keen on trad. I happily adapted both ways, I suppose - maybe because of my choice of instrument, but also because I had taken up the guitar by then.
In this second band, my musical perspective was significantly broadened. Somehow, however, I never managed to escape from the New
Orleans/Dixieland tag that seems inextricably linked to my instrument. Even though my musical progression continued, in years to follow, upon meeting a singer with musical interests close to mine - leading to a two-year pop and folk excursion.
And yes, that I sometimes did on banjo, too, incidentally.
In my first years in London, I had a few gigs, a couple of those really interesting (the best with guitarist Diz Dizly - heard of him, anyone? - me on banjo, and a couple of very fine elderly musicians whose names I don't remember on trumpet and clarinet). But soon I found that the London brand of 'style factionalism' (or should that rather be 'style-fundamentalism'?) can even be worse than where I come from.
London, too, seems full of stern, elderly - and, frankly, pretty dogmatic - gentlemen (never ladies, funnily enough; are they only for vocals and applause?) decreeing with almost theological fervour that jazz from this or that period must and cannot be else but played in such-and-such a fashion.
Exactly that, to my mind, is the surest way of killing trad off once and for all. And - more importantly - draining all the fun out of it.
And that still works brilliantly, sadly enough. In more ways than one.
Several years ago, I took my banjo to some kind of jam session. The venue was full of professional and amateur jazz musicians of every creed - not very many "trad", though, admittedly; I was the only one, as a matter of fact - and when I unpacked my instrument I got some funny looks indeed. I have played every kind of music under the sun, though (except classical, perhaps) - yes, on banjo, - so I don't see myself necessarily as purely a trad instrumentalist.
I did my thing - not too well chosen, maybe, in hindsight - which was received with slightly patronising goodwill. Suffice to say that I have never been back.
So the bias seems to go two ways, really (and - incidentally - in favour of all those bad banjo jokes, too, I'm afraid - none more so than Ian Royle's not at all funny anecdote about this amnesiac banjo player washed up on the Kentish coast - based on a news story, apparently).
Trad, as seen from this corner, is clearly also pigeonholed as fusty and, therefore, irrelevant - nostalgia fodder for crusty old has-beens. And banjo - in the same go - good for no purpose other than that, apparently.
A hugely important thing to consider, I believe - the former especially - when it comes to attracting new - and particularly young - blood, in order to ensure that trad jazz won't be extinct in 10 years' time. For let's face it: trad is already seriously fossilising.
The only possible conclusion has to be that sometime, somewhere along the line trad's PR has gone horribly awry.
Trad has missed the boat a couple of times, where it comes to attracting young people. And those few it managed to lure in, it fails to keep on board.
One abiding feature of trad scenes everywhere - musicians and fans in equal measure - is that they seem totally incapable of thinking and acting out of the box. Anything off the well-trodden track is incredibly difficult to introduce, let alone to implement - and I'm speaking from rich personal experience here.
My frustration was (and is) that, in my view, the onus is predominantly on preservation. On one level rightly so, perhaps.
Slightly less welcome, however, is that this seems to go together with an astonishing lack of creative thinking. And flexibility/openness in particular appears to be in short supply.
Presentation is also far from dynamic - from what I have seen, anyway. And all too often, sadly (waistcoats and boaters indeed).
The worn old tracks travelled time and anon; every band you can think of trotting out the same tired old warhorses - as well as the same old samey patterns: if the celebrated John Smith performed, say, "Bla Bla Blues" in this way or that on his historical
1917 record, then that should be the gospel for posterity.
If you have other ideas, the temerity of straying from the alpha and omega as provided by said John Smith will get you, very likely, the cold shoulder. Or worse: the blasphemy so unforgivable that you'll never again be allowed anywhere near a bandstand.
An interesting analogy to this may be what has happened to the output of famous German playwright Bertolt Brecht (1898-1956).
Much of what he produced in his time (1920-1950, roughly) has still relevance for ours. However, his works are not very often staged any more, these days: a relative has the rights now - and she insists on Brecht plays being presented "as Brecht intended" (i. e. in tune with theatrical conventions as prevalent between last century's Twenties and Fifties) - so any theatrical company, director or producer discovered daring to divert from that template, in ever which way, may well be in for a legal writ.
A similar kind of rigid fundamentalism is rife in many quarters of trad. And its very death knell as well this may be, in my view - preaching the gospel to a dwindling band of the already converted.
The point I'd like to make here is that the aim of preservation for posterity may in itself be a noble and laudable goal - but I have a serious problem with the means to the end.
Purism generally tends to solidify matters; whatever the mission may be. Especially if it's about music
Strict rules, rituals and narrow restrictions will be inserted, sooner or later - often with the best intentions. And that's where I see the biggest danger.
Any music forbidden to flow freely is doomed. That goes for trad in particular. For attempting to save it by casting it in iron, setting it in marble and framing it in lapis lazuli will certainly strangle the life out of it.
The fun was certainly sapped out of it, too, in the end. For me personally, anyway.
And that's for a fact.
As a result, I haven't touched my instruments for many years now. What's the point if those tight strictures are insurmountable and my instrument of choice is not welcome in any other genre I may wish to expand to?
Hence, a newcomer's general impression just must be one of staid conservatism overall. And if he/she is to have the stamina to hang on for a little while longer, the second one may be that everything will be done to keep it that way.
Small wonder that the average trad player and fan are likely to go in shades of grey, silver, or white.
So here's a big problem on hand. The thing is: what to do about it? How about back to basics, for a change? Throwing "style" dogma out, once and for all, and bringing fun back in? Nothing else to worry about but the collective effort to swing like hell.
Scraping a few acoustic musical instruments together and seeing where that'll get you has always been trad's one major strength.
Did the people introducing the concept in the first place give a fig about the particular "style" they were playing? The answer surely has to be 'No they didn't'.
They most likely invented as they went along, delighting fellow-musicians and audiences alike with ever more dazzling takes on their material (a slightly romantic view, perhaps - but you'll get my drift). Labelling the various strands that ultimately ensued is what music historians (and record company bosses, probably, for marketing purposes) were up to on looking back, I should think.
What's more: essentially, trad has always been very democratic. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the tunes and the chords can join in, in principle.
Therefore, a good start for shaking things up a bit, I think, is leaving the purists to their own devices from now on. Haven't they proven to be more of a hindrance than a boon, paradoxically, when it comes to survival at large?
I'm deliberately provocative here. Please don't get me wrong, though. What I'm pleading for, essentially, is following the spirit, rather, than the letter. Or better, maybe, not the might of the 78's groove.
To hit that home, I'm unavoidably going to stand on several more toes, I'm afraid. In the next few paragraphs, anyway.
Trad fans, In my personal experience, divide roughly in two categories: a small minority, sometimes fabulously expert on all things trad; the other bit largely moronic - unable to distinguish between, say, clarinet and trombone, as some testimony on Fred's website clearly shows - and as such perfectly fine with anything producing happy-clappy noises.
Entertainment value the going rate, as far as they are concerned.
Strangely, it's on the latter that I am pinning my hopes. But that'll need an awful lot of educational zeal. And loads of patience to boot.
Personally, I never could stand the kind of muppet, sozzled or sober, putting in a request for the perennial "Ice Cream". Or "Down By The Riverside". Or, "The Saints", God forbid.
The slightly more informed may get as far as "Margie". Or "Petite Fleur", for that matter.
That - in the public collective consciousness, anyway - is what "trad" generally amounts to, as I see it.
Now, imagine a punter coming up to you, requesting, let's say, some Eric Clapton hit (as a funny anecdote of one regular had it). We've all been there, haven't we? - so what are you, an undoubtedly thoroughly self-respecting trad player, going to say?
Initial inclination may be, somewhat understandably, "Sorry, but we're not really into that kind of music" - as a lot of 'Doom & Gloom' participants have admitted to.
So on with the next number then. And punter off, slightly offended. Ah well; doesn't know any better, does he/she, poor thing? Nothing lost there then, eh?
No. On the contrary. And something quite valuable, too, I'd say. For I see a missed opportunity from which both sides can draw advantage.
Yours, for one, as a musician, by treating a request like that as a challenge rather than an obstacle. And yours again, because some effort (at least) as to how far you, as a band, can stretch it in your chosen "style", if you're truly worth your salt, will go some way in the punter's respect. And you might learn a thing or two underway, too.
Some or other famous musician seems to have said once that everything can be "jazzed up".
I don't know who. And it doesn't really matter. The actual point is that if sacrificing on the altar of "style" means gaining new interest in your craft from unexpected corners - as well as a good chance that punters, as a result of that, will also be coming to your next gig, opened up now, more than likely, to some further "training" - what's wrong with that?
Much the same, I think, applies to sitters-in. For if there is no interest in trad any more - or apparently so, as most 'in the club' seem to take for granted - you just have to make it happen in one way or another - don't you?.
Trad and its followers are really good at looking backwards (and inwards). But not very
good at spotting what's around by means of tools for a fighting chance for making trad relevant again. Or for improvement, at the very least, of trad's bad reputation with the demographic bracket from 35 down.
Some of you musicians came forward with experiences of gigs in primary schools and youth clubs. What then of pools of local trad bands, up and down the country, offering mentorships for talented young instrumentalists? There must be ages of trad expertise out there!
Or what about having a pint with the person in charge of your local brass band or youth orchestra (if there are any in your patch) and asking if your band could play
something during their rehearsal break - and then the same, once again, with a few enterprising youngsters sitting in this time? I also could think of even more unorthodox places where young(ish) people come together (but work that out for yourselves).
This might also offer an opportunity to avail those very same youngsters with a fact that may well be a surprise to them.
A young artist called Jamie Cullum (popular with teens, too, I have been told) has been using stock dating from 1930 to 1950, in the years since coming to prominence, that you, the weathered veterans out there, may well have been playing for decades. The same applies to Canadian Michael Bluhé and American Norah Jones - all in their late twenties to early thirties now.
It's as simple as that, really. And entirely about communication, really. Just think about it.
Obviously, this will need some strong shoulders. And plenty of organisational skill, of course.
It's not undoable, though, in my view - publicising your music in such ways as suggested above - on a personal level like this, I mean. But on a somewhat grander scale may not be such a bad idea either.
Reading on, I also came across some complaints about trad's lack of exposure in the media.
And yes - it's very true indeed that television doesn't pay attention to jazz, in any of its manifestation whatsoever. Radio may be marginally better - Saturday afternoons on BBC Radio 3 especially springing to mind.
Television and radio, in their current form, seem on the retreat, too - really struggling to reach a younger audience. The particular demographic they are after, however, has a well-documented preference for internet as their window on the world - much more versatile (in the Western hemisphere, anyway) and less likely to be filtered and manipulated.
Internet has become young folk's medium - and deservedly so - also since it is such a wonderful publicity tool. If you want your aspirations acted out or acted upon, that surely is the way to go.
In the entire 'Doom & Gloom' discussion, however, absolutely no one, amazingly, gave that even a thought! Yet I have to admit that my own ideas in that area are not that clear-cut either.
All I can say is that I'm currently attempting to devise some way of playing banjo via my PC. The next step may be to record that together with other musical instruments somewhat better adapted to the digital age. And the one after that should be finding a means of digitally exchanging and building up on material of purely acoustic origins.
An idea like the one I'm working on may also, potentially, hold some promise of taking trad to a wider plain. For if trad has any other bed than deathbed awaiting, that should be found through or by means of worldwide web.
That said, I'm by no means an IT expert. So maybe this is something for someone better versed than me to chew on.
Yet if internet is there, why not take advantage of it, in one way or another? I'm not holding my breath, though.
Cold feet may still win. Or established tradition may prove too strong.
At the end of the day when I started writing this, I came across a video clip of a really young trad quintet - in their early twenties, without exception, believe it or not - showing off their skills. Capable musicians all, no doubt - yet they had chosen one of the dullest tunes I can think of (Big Butter And Egg Man), did nothing remarkable whatsoever with it and presented it wearing superbly bored expressions and - wait for it! - waist coats and bowler hats!
If that is trad's legacy, God help us all.
Peter de Bont
26/11/09 -
I've been playing in Germany for the past few days and noticed, as one so often does, that the audiences (which are always very enthusiastic) were not getting any younger. Someone in the band observed, as they so often do, that we'd have no-one to play to in another ten years or so, and it suddenly occurred to me that this has been the case for at least the past forty years: the audiences have always been 'elderly' , and we've always been worried about who would be there to listen to us in ten or twenty years time. Yet there they still are. I've a suspicion that successive generations cotton on to traditional jazz at about the time they reach retirement age, and the likes of Amy, Jamie, Jack, Baby Jools and James will still be playing to audiences of advancing years in 2030 - and wondering how much longer the music can last!
Allan Wilcox
27/11/09 -
Dear Fred,
As a past contributor to your "Doom And Gloom" page I was intrigued by the letter from Peter De Bont. I read it twice; and agreed with many of his points. He has thought deeply about the decline of trad (with or without inverted commas or banjos) and writes with a fluency and erudition which, in itself, demands a hearing. (I'm sure I would have misspelt "lapis lazuli").
Nonetheless I feel that he is missing the point when he repeatedly speaks of trad as if it were an identifiable entity which actually exists; and can be liked or not liked; promoted or not promoted; played "correctly" or not so. He should simply have used the word music.
Since time began, some (perhaps peculiar) people have taken the trouble to learn how to make noises on some kind of an instrument, in the hope that the majority of people... who haven't felt that need... might like what they heard. Nothing has changed.
For several decades, in the the last century, musical skills happened to be needed (fortunately for many of us old musos) to make the sounds that most people chose to like... and to pay money to hear. Sadly that is no longer the case. It is pointless for musicians to hope to "educate" their audiences. It always has been.
Allan Bentham.
27/11/09 -
Hi Fred,
the foresight offered by Allan Wilcox not only proves "Less is More" on this occasion but
I am sure it will turn out to be a spot on observation. It being one of the more positive comments I've heard in years. So all is not lost.
Regards Mick Welstead. Old Barn Hall JC/ Preston Cross JC
Part 4 - The end may not be in sight after all
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Read Part I
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