Doom & Gloom in the Jazz World

Part II
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Dear Fred,

I've just had a look at your Doom and Gloom Page for the first time. So here's my pennyworth.

As a youngster of 10 I wanted to play the piano, solely to play The Moonlight Sonata, and that done, I lost interest - that was, until I heard some jazz (Louis Armstrong's All Stars playing Basin Street Blues on a 78 you turned over at the end of the drum solo). Then I bought sheet music (Ragtime, Blues, Boogie, etc) and insisted on trying to play exactly what it showed on the music. When I tried to join the jazz band at college, and played Dr Jazz Stomp, they were interested, but wrote me off because I didn't know about the underlying chord structures. Things started to happen (improvisation-wise) when I tried to play tunes that I knew but didn't have the music for - after a time I could play them, which involved plenty of errors, but in the process I was learning how to cover up the errors by improvising. The rest in my life (now 65) is history. So I get by on the piano, but now I'm learning to play the tuba. I haven't yet reached the stage where I can play the note I hear without thinking, but that's one thing I aim to do.

So for David Fox, I ask, "Can you play a tune you know, such as Daisy, Daisy in any key without the music?" If you can, you can forget about trying to improvise for now: Just join a trad band and memorise the tunes they play, and play them by ear in the keys they use. Occasionally, you'll be dropped in it when the band plays a tune you don't know, but hopefully, by then, you'll have a go at it, and eventually you will find yourself improvising (If you don't make the effort now, you'll find this old codger snapping at your heels with a tuba in hand!)

Good luck,

Malcolm Hogarth     

PS Don't worry Rosie Harrison, our music lessons at school, were just free periods. All our efforts were made in our own time, which is what I experience with many of the youngsters who form bands today. However, the sad thing about today is that the word music is synonymous with singing, and instrumental skill is largely ignored.

11/01/06

Hi Fred, I am indeed starting the New Year both doomily and gloomily! I should be happy as The Rioters Dixieland Jazzband celebrates its Silver Jubilee year, but when I remember the glories of former years, in the words of the song, I'm so melancholy. When the band was formed in 1981 at the Royal Liverpool Hospital to accompany a medical students' show, we were in our late 20s/early
30s. We spent our first decade living up to our name, wearing ridiculous hats, playing rubber chickens, singing risque alternative lyrics, and all the time drinking copious amounts of foaming ale, which made us think we were playing better! Fortunately, most of our punters drank similar quantities, so they thought so too!

Today, it's so different. as Middle Age encroaches, we sip our halves of mild-shandy as we play sober respectable sets, and try to be home before midnight to enjoy a comforting mug of Horlicks. As we succumb philosophically to our various aches and pains, there has been some discussion that it might now be appropriate to change our name from "Rioters" to "Arthrioters"! All messages of sympathy will be gratefully received.

Cheers and Happy New Year (Seriously!) 

Phil Yates           

15/01/06

Hi Fred,

Re Phil Yates recent post, as the slightly above middle age drummer for the last 17 years or so ( and getting no older during that time !!! ), I am as far as I know the only one suffering from the dreaded 'ARTHURIOTERS' in the Rioters Dixieland Jazz Band !!! After all, the others in the band are mere children compared with Gerry Cambridge ( Banjoist) and me !!!! Playing jazz is wonderful therapy to get over the worst of the complaint.

Seriously, though, the band plays lots of private gigs where there is a lot of interest in our music from 'younger' people, and this was the case particularly at the recent CAFOD where Gerry & I had quite long conversations with a young guitarist & a drummer ( who were both running in the charity event !!) So all is not yet completely lost.

Gerry & I came into jazz in the much better pre-jazz boom/trad days of the Fifties, and we had the same views on learning to play jazz i.e you have just got to listen to records & performances and emulate the sounds heard on your own instrument. Train your ears for jazz by playing tunes by ear (starting with simole ones) and following the chord sequences in one's head. If you can read music, fine but that is a bonus to be used later !! Throw away the music and chord books to get the feel of the music. If you wish, begin by copying the solos by jazz greats and making slight changes to them to suit your own ideas. Eventually you will build up a repertoire you are happy with. Then get out & about and sit in as much as you can.

From time to time, we have sitters-in with the Rioters.Some are good but others seem just to tootle along with the music without apparently trying to play any proper jazz phrases from the classic repertoire.Express yourself in the music. Most of all, do not be shy !!!

I was once at a jazz workshop at the Wigan Jazz Festival, which was attended by a number of players from WYJO. The tutor asked all the participants to play a simple blues chorus in turn.None of them made a good stab at it even though the Orchestra, including them, had played a concert of Woody Herman, Stan Kenton, Bill Holman tunes including solos, which had included blues items.They had been fine playing the written solos, but had no idea as to how to put together a blues.This is the trap to avoid !!! So David Fox, just get out there, listen and blow !!!

In case you think it funny a drummer knowing about music, I must add that I am, I think, a multi-instrumentalist in that I do play some piano from time to time.

Regards,            
Roy Swift               

Hello Fred.

Last Wednesday 11th, I along with Andy Henderson were guests of the Downtown Dixielanders at the Marlborough in Liverpool. I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed playing before a receptive audience which included quite a few students. In the interval and at the end of the evening some of them asked a lot of questions. They were curious as to how the sound of the clarinet was formed via a reed and the usual one of "How long does it take to learn to play", etc but they stayed for the whole evening because in their own words, "we enjoyed it" so there is a glimmer of hope for the future. The problem of them getting an instrument and going through the pains of learning to play could be quite a barrier, but the more they listen the more hope there is

Kindest Regards

Bernard Bibby             

16/01/06

Hello Fred

Almost anything I could add to Doom and Gloom has been said by now - I agree with most of what I've read. Like an earlier correspondent I prefer weddings and birthdays to jazz clubs. Any praise at a function is freely given and means quite simply that somebody likes what you do. At a jazz club (after you've been told how good last week's band was and what a wonderful band is appearing next week) praise means that you have played EXACTLY the favourite style of the punter. Oh that more people listened to, enjoyed and supported a wider range of jazz. No more of: "They're a mouldy fig band" or "We don't like modern".

And now on to David Fox. Good advice given by Frank Slater, Andy Henderson and Malcolm Hogarth.

1 Practise tunes, tunes, tunes. Find the original key (not always correct on the sheet music, nor that employed by many bands) and play it by ear (if you get really stuck look at the sheet occasionally). Then go round the keys (e. g. up a fourth continually, though up a minor third is good practice). Find the lowest note and transpose the tune so that this note is the bottom one playable on your instrument. Do it for all kinds of tunes - snatches of the classics, pop tunes, carols, hymns, nursery rhymes. Eventually you will begin to recognise melody intervals - some will come automatically, others you'll have to think about. You'll begin to play tunes fairly accurately and phrases will begin to form in your head which will help you to improvise. Don't despair; many experienced local players can't play melodies accurately; some may tell you that they can only play improvisations - you may or may not care to believe them. Arpeggios are good also: for the key of C: Cmajor 7, D minor 7, E minor 7, F major 7, G 7, Am7, Bm7 flat5. Up and down, up one down the next etc, on to D. (It may have gone dark by now.)

2 Get a piano (in concert pitch) or a keyboard. Play tunes with the right hand, simple block chords (3 notes will often suffice) with the left. Get the chords from the sheet music (ignore written left hand) - fairly accurate - sometimes over-complicated, or a reputable chord book (French Les Grilles fairly reliable, certain others, possibly associated with the White Rose or Archimedes, not recommended; if you're stuck try me - I'm in the MU directory). Owen Bryce's Let's Play Jazz books are helpful for all aspects of jazz making. Although you're trying to hear chord sequences, rather than become a good pianist, a jazz piano book may be of some help; borrow one or more from a library (e. g. Watson Music Library in Manchester) and peruse the elementary parts. I realise that to do all this piano playing is adding much time on; it's not as important as playing tunes on your horn, but if you want to learn harmony......

3 Listen to lots of recordings. Your aim should be to find out the approach of the players on your instrument, rather than to copy their notes. Play along, sing along, whistle along with them. Try whistling improvisations - you can do this in the car or in the bath.

4 Find a band and play with it/sit in. Don't worry about the mistakes. We all make plenty, sometimes horrendously. But you must LISTEN. Almost half of a jazzperson's skill is bandsmanship - listening, fitting in, co-operating, anticipating, prompting, innovating........

5 Good improvisation requires melodic ability and harmonic knowledge. Many amateur/semi-pro players don't have both in abundance - horn players tend to be strong in the first category, weak in the second; guitarists and bassists the reverse. Also a number of them don't have your technique. Get out there and do it; build on your strengths of technical ability, good tone, accurate intonation (many of us "experienced" musicians struggle with these.)

Good luck. On the second day.........

John Muskett         

The piece in Doom and Gloom about young musicians is very interesting, I have been playing traditional Jazz for some long time now and I am one of the younger one at age 65 and the audience in Lancaster is somewhat older but my session on a Sunday Lunch at The John O' Gaunt attracts interested youngsters, below is part of a piece I put in this Doom and Gloom discussion about sitting in, this time it is about youngsters who have been encouraged by me and my cornet player Alan Duckles, and we do not turn people away.   Encourages youngsters below

Adrian Wilkinson who came as a very young man to sit in on clarinet, I believe he was going to be a chemist, he went on to Leeds College Of Music he is now a full time working musician playing and leading big bands touring England and Europe, he also still plays New Orleans Jazz, I saw him with a big band that had a small Dixieland outfit within it, it was his idea.....good lad!

James Swinnerton (Jack Swinnerton's son) started coming along and I asked him to sit in on clarinet or Double Bass with us, when our regular bass player could not play anymore Alan Duckles suggested James became our regular bass player, eventually I encouraged him to go beyond us and he is now playing for the likes of Martin Bennett, Dave Donohoe and Rod Chambers and has done gigs with Brian Carrick's Algiers Stompers and others.

Danny Riley, he began to sit in with my band and Alan Duckles' New Riverside Jazz Band, he now runs his own band in Lancaster.

Michael Howard, a Rock/Glam Rock guitar player who now plays jazz well and is my regular guitarist.

Neil Harrison, now a fine gypsy Jazz guitarist.   Ben Ruth, a blues harp (harmonica) player who we let play with us in his formative years, he finished up living in Chicago playing in bands and formed his own and did tours of the UK with musicians from that City.   These guys were youngsters when they first played with us and they have all done well, some very well.

There are others out there.    

Barrie Marshall          

20/01/06

Dear Fred   Memo to Phil Yates of the Rioters. Never dispense with rubber chickens! As the Bard says, "there's many a good tune played on an old bird". Phil should think himself lucky wait until he gets to my age as I struggle to lift my sticks high enough to hit the cymbals and hope I can make it through the night (cue for a song) and as I pack my kit up at the end of the evening studiously avoiding the gazes of the mature ladies I realise that my days as a sex god and drumming superstar are long gone. I would like to say that if anyone sees me struggling to carry my kit to the car I would appreciate some help as it is difficult with my zimmer frame. I raise a cup of Ovaltine to you.   

Moe Green        

08/02/06 

From: Wil Robinson (southsidejazz at hotmail dot com)

Here is my response to a comment from Bert Schroeder of the WirrOrleans Jazz Band in February 2003. 

He wrote, and I quote: "As I see it, in this day and age there is no point in trying to educate new young musicians to New Orleans Jazz, its like trying to educate them to Picasso, when Turner is easier to understand, Picasso later, Better to give it them in a Dixieland style, a good strong rhythm section, a tune they know, a vocal, a bit of comedy, make them take notice, after all we are entertainers"

Deep breath, and here we go: 

Bert, it is this attitude which will be the death of what is already a dying art form. Are you for one minute suggesting that just because we do not live in an era where youngsters have access to New Orleans Jazz as a general music form that we should compromise and just give them what we think they might know and enjoy, and hope they start to progress in the jazz world? Should we abandon what we so desperately need to preserve? How dare you suggest that kids these days are not worth our effort in trying to educate in New Orleans jazz. That is such a narrow minded comment! I really hope that I have upset you. That I have stirred some indignation in you. That I have made you sit up and pay attention!

I am 34 years old. I live my life as a full time professional musician. I also teach 33 people/kids privately. I am fully qualified with a degree in music, and seven performance diplomas. However my playing is firmly rooted in New Orleans, Dixieland, and traditional jazz. I play fortnightly with The Jazz Preservation Society Band in Sheffield, monthly with The New Toledo Jazz Band in Sheffield, and weekly with my own band The Southside Jazz Band. However, I am still learning. I am desperate to keep jazz going. I would like to be playing it in 30 years time. If we did things your way this would not be the case.

Are you now starting to get an idea as to why you have so provoked my ire! 

I have 7 year old children who really love New Orleans Jazz. I incorporate it into all my lessons. I have got kids who play with incredible patience and invention. I have even younger kids who play back to me, in key, whatever I sing to them. Not every child/pupil can be taught in the same way. Some are suited to one form of music others to others. Those suited to jazz have a myriad of paths to follow. As a teacher you teach the pupil according to their ability and their aptitude. You cannot compare a non-tangible, non-visual art form like music to physical art forms like painted art. Your Picasso/Turner comparison is as irrelevant to jazz as is banking.

I don't care about all your arguments about Ken Colyer. Surely it is better for a young player to find a muse, and then develop their own style as they mature ( this, ironically, and I am sorry to shatter all your illusions, is what most of the greats did). Jazz needs preserving. Young players need nurturing. Don't you ever dare tell me that it is not worth teaching young players about New Orleans Jazz. Does your opinion also stretch to Dixieland and Traditional Jazz. Your attitude is both patronising and narrow minded. 

I want to learn my trade from all the experienced (and unfortunately generally old) musicians around me. I do my utmost to inspire and encourage young kids to play jazz. Be it trad, Dixie, or New Orleans. It never ceases to amaze me what kids (and some adult pupils) are able to achieve. I, as I said above, want to be playing trad, Dixieland and New Orleans jazz in 30 years time. If we do things in the way you narrow-mindedly suggest then it will not happen. 

Encourage everyone and anyone. The mantle has now, like it or not, fallen to the elder statesmen of our jazz world to ensure the survival of our art form. I work hard to preserve it, but I have neither the experience or the know how.

I'm sure you are chomping at the bit to respond. Before you do, think about your own comments. Think about how it makes youngsters like myself feel. Are we, and younger than myself really not worth your time?

Yours

now spent,

Wil Robinson

14/02/06 - From Joe Silmon

There are those out there who think that only their favourite form of Jazz is worth saving and needs to be taught to the young rising musicians, by the dying breed of craftsmen in the field, and thoroughly digested and learnt by, the young, in order to preserve it for all time. But have they just forgotten about all the other forms? It's ALL Jazz, whether it is played in our favourite style, or not. It all started from singing (Blues Shouting) in the cotton-fields by African slaves and it became their lament or protest, their deep dissatisfaction with their lot; later, came makeshift guitars, drums, tea-chest bases, liquor jugs, washboards, imported banjos, suitcases, and anything that kept the beat, rhythm, etc. Demobilised Civil War soldiers discarded brass and woodwind instruments, later acquired from junk shops and yards by local musicians, which gave rise to the early instrumental Jazz - yes, including, piccolos, flutes, oboes, saxophones, as well as trombones, trumpets and clarinets - and that began to establish itself at the beginning of the 1900s in a more specific instrumental pattern. But it was a 'mongrel' kind of music that has taken many forms in approximately 150 years of its history. We should remember it and preserve it in all its aspects, if we are to be fair to its many thousands of exponents. 

What is it that the preservationists who contribute to this website are wanting to preserve? Well, naturally, New Orleans, Ragtime, Spanish Creole, French Creole, early Dixieland and Modern Dixieland (all the forms that fall largely under the umbrella term 'Traditional Jazz'). In itself, this list is fairly long, but it can't be considered that this is the whole of Jazz, therefore, the list is incomplete. The essential ingredient of Jazz is extemporisation; Jazz is not Jazz without it; we have to remember that it is a lament, the music has to come from heart and the soul. It is primarily the preserve of the black slave. We whites have hijacked Jazz, but large numbers of us are at one with the one-time slave and feel his or her pain, respect them, their music and express it almost as sincerely as they would, and for them, when we play it - in all its guises. Louis Armstrong was black; but so was Charlie Parker. They both expressed Jazz in their own individual way, in periods (years not decades) not too far apart or at the same time. 

OK, I accept that this website is primarily geared to cater chiefly for the above forms of Jazz. And I am also aware that space and Webmaster (Fred's) time are already fully taken up with the main form. It is, of course, commendable of those who want these forms of Jazz to be preserved and passed on to the young, who will soon be taking over altogether from us wrinklies. We would want that to happen anyway, and many of us take time out to help the young musicians to learn the trade, and give them opportunities to sit in and gain experience and answer their many questions. But what about the countless other offshoot styles of the main Jazz tree?: Mainstream, Chicago, Swing, Boogie-Woogie, Be-Bop, Cool School, Progressive, Avant Garde, Free, Fusion (Afro-Cuban, Afro-Indian, Euro-Indian), Funk, Flamenco Jazz, Jazz Samba (Bossa Nova), etc., etc. Whether we like it or not, they are all styles of Jazz. Are we to refuse to teach the young musicians any of these styles, simply because some of us don't like them? Let us be fair to the young; encourage them to go through EVERYTHING, not just to learn what we want them to learn. They can choose later what style suits them best, or dabble in all, or some, of them. The future is theirs, not ours. 

In all my humility, to Jazz, in all your forms and styles, from the bottom of my heart, THANKS, for allowing me to be a part of your existence. However little I may have contributed over half-a-century, it was always from the heart and soul.

Joe Silmon 

14/02/06 - From Wil Robinson

Hi Simon. Thank you for your comments. 

Good on you matey, you have got a few years on me! It sounds to me as though you got hooked and then pursued your chosen sound.

I enjoyed reading your comments, but I am not sure you fully understand the point I was making. Our art is on the wane. Like it or not this is the case. I do it full time, but have to teach as well in order to earn anything like a decent wage. There are plenty of other musicians out there who make a good living from it, but they have been established for years and years. 

We need to have a very "open microphone" attitude if we are to be doing this in the year 2020. All kids need is that introduction. They will either get the "bug" or they won't. Those that don't still need variety in their musical education, and those that do need nurturing and educating. We should never just give them a taste of something fun and hope they catch on. 

My wife, her parents, my parents, and my best friend are school teachers. My family, and my wife's family have always been teachers. If they had decided to try kids out on only the tastier, more fun sides of the curriculum then where would we be now. Grammar is seriously on the decline in schools. Latin is rarely taught any more. If we decided to get grammar up and running again as it used to be, it could not happen merely by waving the "Latin is fun flag" and hoping we get some kids interested in a none mainstream subject! As a teacher, as an educator in musical art, we need to be proactive. GET OUT THERE AND ENCOURAGE THE YOUNGSTERS! Don't dabble and hope. It does not work. It is patronising and pointless. 

Let them hear what we do. Explain how the music came about. Introduce basic tunes into lessons. You mentioned Tin Roof Blues. Perfect! Keep it moving and let them play. Introducing improvisation to kids via a 12 bar is also the most accessible way to do it. The first piece I learnt was Clarinet Marmalade. Now that really is a baptism of fire! Just give them a chance. The kids/youngsters who are meant to play our type of jazz, will, if encouraged and helped, learn their trade. We then need to make sure they have an outlet for what they have practised. Keep the jazz clubs and pubs open. 

Another point I think we need to think about is really, and I mean really encouraging front line musicians in out art. I could follow a chord sequence on tuba, bass guitar and banjo, but playing front line on trumpet is a bit different. Front line playing is, and I am sure this will create a rumpus, more difficult for kids and youngsters these days to learn, than rhythm section playing. Trumpet especially. I play with chaps that have been around for 50/60 years. If they don't know a tune they get by on a set of chords. Not so for the trumpet player. You need to lead the tune. Where does a 20 year old trumpet player learn how to play all the lead lines? Trust me, I speak from pained, frustrated experience. This is where the task of keeping "an open Mic" will help. Let the kids come in and make mistakes. Help them guide them. Don't presume we know what they should be playing.

I would be interested to hear from any other "young" trumpet players especially.

I'm afraid I have have not had time to re-read what I have written. I have just typed as I have thought. I hope what I have said makes some sort of sense, and triggers some sort of action. Let me know please. My personal email address is southsidejazz at hotmail dot com. (work that one out for yourself, I'm trying to stop the spam collectors - Fred)

Regards 

Wil Robinson

19/02/06 - From Moe Green

Hi Fred I would like to pick up on the letter by my old friend Joe Silmon. He mentions the various styles of Jazz and says that we should encourage young musicians in all these. I quite agree but where would the musician hear these styles today? In my time I have played everything from N. O to Avant Gard and Free Form (the latter was a dead end but you have to try these things ! ) before happily coming back to my roots. However this has taken me 50yrs and at the time there was a lot more opportunity to play with musicians than there is now. Also you must have the ability to fit in with the style that is being played you could not go from Baby Dodds to Max Roach in a matter of weeks! I was lucky enough to know like minded musicians whatever style I was playing but this might not be the case for todays budding musicians. It is very hard to "pay your dues" these days with the ubiquitous D. J. everywhere but most older musicians have probably like me played all sorts of venues with all sorts of musicians and not always of the jazz persuasion! But all this gives you a rounded outlook on music that I don't know where young musicians today could acquire. I would happily give young drummers any help that I could but I must say that I have never met any young jazzers at the gigs that I play at. Apropos Joe s potted history of Jazz I must take issue with him over Jazz being the preserve of the slaves. They certainly contributed spirituals and work songs but by the time Jazz was beginning to be played slavery had been abolished for four decades. Also I don't agree that the whites stole the music from the blacks. In the early days of the 20th. century I am sure that some white musicians had an input into Jazz. Look at Papa Jack Laine for instance. I know the first Jazz recordings were by a white band (although Freddie Keppard could have had that honour three years earlier if he had not been worried about musicians stealing his licks! )but the fact is white musicians were able to cash in simply because they were white. They would have been quite happy to see their black contemporaries become successful. In closing I was sorry to hear that the Northern Allstars had disbanded (gloom ) I did some enjoyable gigs depping with them and I am glad to see that Jimmy Smith is well and still "going for it " all the best Jimmy ! (Jimmy died 21st June 2007)

Moe Green          

19/02/06

In a light hearted break, Ian Royle sent me a list of ways that musicians can identify when they are getting old. I've selected a few of my favourites

• Your fans have left by 10:30 p.m. 

• You've lost the directions to the gig. 

• You need your glasses to see your amp settings. 

• You find your drink tokens from last month's gig in your guitar case. 

• Your gig stool has a back. 

• You're related to at least one member of the band. 

• You need a nap before the gig. 

• You don't let anyone "sit in." 

• You prefer a music stand with a light. 

19/02/06 - Joe Silmon

I don't want this page to develop into a discussion of the origins of jazz, it's about the need to encourage young listeners and musicians and what's stopping them. However I found this response to Moe from Joe Silmon very interesting and enlightening.   - Fred

I'm sorry to have started yet another controversy,  but I read Moe Green's comments with great interest. He was always a good Jazz buff and I'm sure there is a lot in what he says regarding the non-availability of that multi-denominational material for young Jazzers to learn - nowadays - as applicable to some of the styles I mentioned. I maintain, however, that every budding Jazz musician should be made aware of what preceded, as well as what followed on from, early instrumental Jazz, and that there wasn't just one style of Jazz. Origins are crucially important, as the reasons for the music coming about are rooted in Slavery and the 'protest' songs of the Blacks in America. 

From my own notes after reading "Altermedia News USA: Abraham Lincoln: Liar and Warmonger", I concluded that Lincoln had some ulterior motives; he wanted slave-holding States on the border with the South to stay in the Union, at all costs. So he promised them he wouldn't abolish Slavery; but did so after the Battle of Antietam ("Emancipation Proclamation"). In the ratification of the 13th Amendment to the US Bill of Rights (06/DEC/1865), Abraham Lincoln had set up a gradual process for freeing slaves that would eventually end on 01/DEC/1900, so only some slaves were freed by the time Moe says. There were 3 constitutional Amendments: 1) [initiated in 1862] A 37-year period to 1st Jan. 1900; 2) Provision of Government compensation to slave owners for "loss of property" [slaves]; 3) Government to cover cost of transportation of freed Blacks to Latin-America and Africa. By the end of this period we see the beginnings of instrumental Jazz played by the children of black slaves, not just the grandchildren, or great-grandchildren, etc., as Moe suggests. What were Mahalia Jackson and Sister Rosetta Tharpe singing about during the birth of what became known as Jazz (cradled in Gospel Music and the Blues) if it wasn't the preserve of the Blacks as a protest about Slavery, and as so-called "free" and "equal" Black Americans being treated like dog-dirt over the decades - eventually centuries, even now? At one time, that I can remember during my playing career, Black Americans didn't want us British Jazz musicians to play Jazz, because we didn't feel it as they could in their 'Blackness'. I fully sympathised with their outlook on that, but couldn't help playing the music that I loved. Nowadays, despite popular belief, Traditional Jazz is not being played everywhere in the United States, so Black American Jazzers are grateful that over here, we are helping to preserve their older forms of Jazz, and that they haven't therefore died out yet! 

I have always held Moe Green in high esteem. He was always an innovator and experimenter, with the courage of his convictions, and with outstanding acquired skills, in any different style he attempted. It doesn't surprise me that he went back to what he calls his 'roots' - generally Traditional Jazz. I, on the other hand, wanted to move on and follow the evolutionary path of Jazz, so long as I remained within the limitations of my capabilities, and was always aware of what Jazz had evolved from and why. 

Joe Silmon            

21/02/06 - Bert Schroeder

Well thank you, Simon, Joe and Wil, my thoughts exactly, we are all heading down the same road, but first we have to get the youngsters interested, and not talk over their heads and frighten them off, let them discover jazz for themselves as we all did, that's the point I was trying to make, 

I remember when I was at art school, our tutor tried to tell us what we should see in an abstract work, I could not see anything,  I just wanted to paint nice pictures. That was years ago, now I have some favourites, but not Picasso. 

I have been busy doing my bit on local community radio, promoting local jazz bands, and interviewing local musicians, in fact, On Monday night I went to see Linda Leigh, vocal, with Malcolm Hogarth, keyboard, not trad jazz but very nice, a new venue at the Egremont Ferry Hotel, Tobin Street, Egremont, Wallasey, the 2nd and 3rd Monday of the month. I interviewed two young lads sitting at the next table, Tony 19, and Jason 22, they told me how they liked the music, and it made a nice change to the usual head banging stuff, (their words not mine,) Jason plays drums, and would like a chance to sit in with a jazz band some time, I invited him to a local venue featuring "Mamas Jass Babies" at the Seacombe Ferry Hotel, the 1st Friday every month, just down the promenade from the Egremont Ferry Hotel. "Mamas Jass Babies" always pull a good crowd, and are always sympathetic to new comers, Simon will agree, and guest musicians are always very welcome,

Bert Schroeder             

25/02/-6 - Joe Silmon

When I accompanied my daughter Jane to the Abraham Moss Centre [Music facility], where she had interviews and auditions, as did other candidates present, I had the opportunity to interview about a half-a-dozen young people of about my daughter's age (20) about their feelings on present day Jazz. 

The overall message I got, reflected what my eldest son Joe said recently when I asked him about his feelings on Jazz of any style. Bear in mind that this involves potential Music students, not just any kind of student in other disciplines. This overall message was that they all liked Jazz when they could recognise the melody. If they didn't, they wouldn't listen, whatever style was being played. Only one or two of them recognised any differences between distinctive Jazz styles. They tended to go for someone who appealed to them, especially if they were close to their own age-group. Those who appealed to them tended to be Modern Jazz players; not one knew anything about New Orleans or Traditional or Dixieland Jazz. However, they had heard of Charlie Parker and Miles Davis; some had heard of Dizzy Gillespie, but Barber, Bilk, Ball, Colyer, Humph, etc., mean absolutely nothing to them. This is the overall problem. They're not exposed to the music that is expected to be preserved, but they vaguely identify with the other forms that I have mentioned before. Maybe that is the only way they're going to be hooked, to listen to the preceding forms - when it is explained to them what sparked it all off - Slavery. In these days of P.C. and ethnic awareness, perhaps they will give it some thought. But they should never be indoctrinated about anything, only informed. It is then up to them to decide what they want to do. 

They do, however, relate to mainly present-day Modern Jazz musicians closer to their own age groups. One student was actually into Progressive Jazz. He was a bass-guitarist; his idol was Jacko Pastorius (an absolutely brilliant fingerstyle bass-guitarist from the USA, who has really made his name worldwide). Courtney Pine was recognised by one youngster. Again, Modern not Traditional Jazz. I doubt if anyone who follows this site will know about Jacko Pastorius. I have heard him, but he would certainly not appeal to you, Fred, or to purists anywhere. So none of these young people show any leanings towards Traditional Jazz of any style or sub-style. The only other way I think that our youngsters will ever be hooked on the older styles, is if they are exposed (but not indoctrinated) into it at schools - as obviously teachers like Wil Robinson are doing quite successfully now - or they come across it in the street or in a park, etc., as they will seldom encounter it in pubs, until they're more of a drinking age. They may just discover Traditional Jazz for themselves somewhere, anywhere by chance; that is the only other real hope we have. 

On this very site, I have had tussles with young, extremely rude and distinctly undiplomatic people, who have asked us for help regarding something like booking bands, to play Jazz at particular functions they were running, for a party or a dance. "Rat-Pack" music was what they required on one occasion. One girl told me - after you had put an appeal out for "help" - that what she didn't want was a band of "old men in fancy waist-coats and boaters, playing banjos and tubas, and sounding half-dead". The "rat-pack" lad said something very similar. You can imagine the "help" they got from me. They were actually describing most of those of us who contribute to the site, to a tee; although we do at least 'sound' livelier than their descriptions. I got the "rat-pack" lad to apologise to everyone on the site, and told him that "he wasn't endearing himself to the very people he wanted help from, if he said things like that". The young lady, to whom I wrote something very similar, just faded away. Not a peep from her. But they both got the message! So there is an 'attitude' out there against Old Traditional Jazz and Musos. We must all be aware of it. 

Every good wish. 

Joe Silmon

Facts....  The  music media,  Radio,  TV,  ,& especially the record industry have been pumping out non- jazz since the Beatles revolution around 1960 to the exclusion of traditional jazz ie ( New Orleans,- Chicago style-  Dixieland,-  Swing ).    Therefore, no surprise when the vast majority of under 40 year olds    (Through no fault of their own) perceive jazz with indifference, cloth-eared bewilderment, or downright hostility. The average person today suffers from  " The Magic Cakehole Syndrome" i.e. " If  it ain't singing, it ain't music.   Budding jazz players today face peer group pressure, fewer opportunities to practice their art, and an inevitable age related audience void  in the longer term.   Jazzers would not attend a Sex Pistols concert so why expect today's youngsters to dig Eddie Condon's brand of New York Dixieland ? I am old enough to witness the birth of the DJ phenomenon in 1950 when during the interval of a gig in Warrington a guy walked on the stage, placed a portable record player on a chair and proceeded to play records to the dancers.  This turned out to be the tip of the iceberg...  SOME ICEBERG!   In an age when Charlie Parker plays Traditional Jazz, & when Louis Armstrong was the first man on the moon,  times are hard for lovers of jazz. In the meantime, let's go down fighting. Nil Illegitimate Carborundum etc      

Best Wishes  Harold            

27/02/06 - Stan Ward

Hi Fred,

I travelled the 26 miles from Huddersfield to Whitefield last night picking up two friends from Rochdale on the way to hear The Old Fashioned Love Band playing at St Bernadette's Club. We were part of an audience of 28 people who came to see this fine band. Although it was a cold evening, the room was warm, the acoustics good and the full band played really well. Those of us there had I really good evening. On Tuesday at De La Salle there were only 34 paying customers to see the Savannah Jazz Band. Again a cold evening and with the now regular competition from football matches. The Mart Rodger situation at Didsbury was well documented on your pages. How can we buck this trend? If bands of this quality cannot attract sufficient support then what is the future of jazz in Manchester? Promoters cannot afford to lose money in this way. - Stan

John Bratby      
9th Mar 2006          

Hi Fred

This is probably the last letter that I shall write on this subject. The problem as we know is the increasing age of audiences and musicians and the lack of younger people to replace them. Most of us came into jazz in the 50s and early 60s when the music was readily available live and on radio. When my three kids were growing up they naturally heard jazz around the house but it meant little to them they preferred Simon & Garfunkel, Bob Dylan etc. What I am trying to say is that each generation chooses its own music and ours happened to be jazz. Joe Silmon mentions music students and the musicians they have heard of. He cites Jaco Pastorious as an example. This bass player's innovations and technique were incredible. For the sake of argument you could also cite Wynton Marsalis. Now from the viewpoint of an 18yr. old music student ', whose technique and style would impress him more, the two above or for instance Pops Foster and Ken Colyer? I am not denigrating the last two musicians in the least but from a students point of view there would be no contest. I remember being knocked out the first time that I heard Zutty Singleton but today they would regard him as corny! So on the one hand you have the general public who, in the majority, have been raised on a diet of unremitting pop music from wall to wall commercial stations and on the other you have the music students who naturally want to become brilliant musicians in their own right and so their heroes are contemporary musicians who have the technical prowess that they want to aspire to. So there you have it. I don't think we will make much headway with the students and unless there is a fluke entry into the charts as there was in 1960 ( The temps. with "You're Driving Me Crazy" ) Joe Public will remain apathetic. Maybe we have to accept that when we go so will most of our music. I know that this sounds defeatist but I am only being realistic. At least I have had 50yrs. of the music for which I consider myself incredibly lucky and I intend to carry on for as long as I possibly can !! 

Moe Green          
9th Mar 2006                 

Dear Fred

No doubt, many who look in on, or contribute to, this site regarding the Doom and Gloom issue would disagree with me when I state that John Bratby (undated entry, but circa 9/MAR/2006) puts it all in a nutshell and comes up with what, in my humble opinion, is the desirable attitude expected of all of us seasoned jazzers, regarding youngsters taking up just a selected portion of the whole of Jazz. After they've had a taste of all styles, all available in record shops, now and for a while yet, and from car-boot sales, market stalls, etc., on records (EPs, LPs, singles), cassettes, CDs, DVDs - they're not non-existent, even if not all live bands that played in those multi-varied styles have remained active, let them decide. Besides, there has to come a day when - as John Bratby also hints at - it is all going to be lumped together as one style, JAZZ, as distinct from the many other styles of popular music that will be around. 

John also identifies a very important problem, as did Moe Green earlier: Peer pressure. I am forced to use that horrible, antiquated cliché, "In our day", back in the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc., it might have been 'cool' to be 'hot', unless people were geared to play 'Cool School' music, etc., from the 50s onwards. But any style of Jazz young people were involved with then, seemed to mark them out as special people, in a small way as 'famous'; "they play in a Jazz band" and therefore, they were the equivalent of 'cool' (the height of fashion) as kids describe 'cool' today. However, as John rightly suggests, peer-pressure to concentrate on Pop (in its various guises) now plays a big part in swaying potential young jazzers away from Jazz as a whole. It will take a marked degree of heroism for some youngsters to play what their peers might label "rooty-tooty" or "Mickey Mouse" music nowadays, when they could be playing 'Heavy Metal', 'House', 'Ska', etc., with the rest of all 'normal' teenagers, who, to be fair, belong to a completely different musical era. It is their world now, not ours! However, maybe not immediately, as many of us want them to, but at some time in the future, some youngsters are going to pick up some of those old recordings in some Musical Archives section of a library, or even a junk shop, and the whole ball game will start rolling again. Jazz is a 'classic' - in all its aspects - it's going to be around for centuries, like Classical Music. There is hope that it will not just fizzle out, but it is not necessarily immediate hope. 

My final bit too - I think - on this subject, and it is very brief, you will be relieved to know. 

I couldn't agree more with what my younger-than-me old pal Moe Green states in his last message of 9th March. He's spot on in everything he says! We have to be realistic. However, it doesn't stop us zimmer-frame-wielding wrinklies (fans and musicians alike) from supporting each other until the bitter end [whatever style each of us play] and, if necessary, setting up in central, easy-to-reach venues under a "collective" or "joint-venture" scheme invlolving contributions by several bands or fan clubs working together in the same area, for the common good, to keep the music going until the plug is finally pulled out! 

I wonder if local authorities and/or arts councils might consider subsidising such ventures for their cultural possibilities. 

Very best wishes.       

Joe Silmon        
11th Mar 2006          

Hi Fred, I've just found your page and enjoyed reading all the comments about young jazz enthusiasts in Doom & Gloom. I play drums for the Swale Valley Stompers, and we have quite a keen following amongst the youngsters at our fortnightly pub gig. Also, I have a five year old grandson who is absolutely hooked on it, and is showing a very good sense of rhythm, so who knows where this might lead?

Keep up the good work, 

Sincerely, Mike Green. 18th Mar. 2006

Hi! -

"Don't mourn - organize!" were the famous last words of - I forget who. Go to www.prjc.org/tjen  I've just emailed them to see if there's a British branch. If anyone else out there is interested in making it happen, count me in! 

Geoff Beaven, 19th Mar 2006

It was Joe Hill, a member of the IWW otherwise known as the Wobblies or The International Workers of the World. -  Pete Vickers,

Fred,

Keeps echoing on, doesn’t it. Maybe my final statment on the subject...........perhaps...............just continuing from where I first came in really......................Dixi!  

No, I’m not their publicity manager, but just to take a quotation from their CD “The New Orleans Sessions”.....................................................

“Dixi was started in 1996 as a seven-piece group of young hopefuls with two trumpets, two tubas and no banjo. While still in their teens, the band gained valuable experience and local “celebrity status” doing gigs in and around their home town of Molde, a small town with a big jazz festival on the west coast of Norway..

By the year 2000, Dixi had found its current form and has since evolved into an original and important part of the Norwegian trad-jazz scene. Dixi has performed with great success all over Scandinavia and Great Britain , as well as the Faroe Islands and New Orleans .”

“In their teens”............... they don’t seem much older now, and they certainly make a very professional and experienced sound!

Apparently such terms as “started playing at the age of eight”, and “school band” appear in the CV’s of a number of members of the band, and they give the impression that it’s all rather a normal part of education to get so involved so early.

I certainly suggest that people make an effort to go to a Dixi gig on their present tour, and if they get the chance, just find out how they did it, and more importantly how we can do it here!

John Bratby 27/03/06

Dear Fred,   Here is another counter doom & gloom item:   We went to the Bohem Ragtime Festival (March 25 - 27th) in Keskemet in Hungary. It was great, with lots of early style jazz all in one place (although there were events in other towns) played in particular by young musicians (and some older ones). The standard of musicianship and the enthusiasm of the players was outstanding, and the tunes they played were familiar, many being what we hear in our traditional jazz clubs   Couple this with family audiences (with well behaved young children), nice friendly people, very reasonably priced food and drink, real Hungarian Gypsy music played in restaurants, good organisation, and a jam session that finished at 5 in the morning, and you'll know that Isabel and I will be going again next year. I'll let you know when I get next year's brochures, and I can send them off to anyone interested in going.   

Malcolm Hogarth  15/04/06

Hey Fred

Sorry to raise the subject again, but reading Malcolm Hogarth’s comment, felt that I had to add my two penn’eth.

I envy him his trip to Hungary, sounds like just the thing I’d like to do - honestly!

But, the comment “here is another counter gloom and doom item” does nothing for me, and certainly does not counter the gloom and doom, it just emphasizes that Hungary has got it right and we haven’t. Just like a number of other European countries. Traditional Jazz there is thriving, virtually from the cradle to the grave, unfortunately, and generally, in this country we have to leave out the “from the cradle” bit.

In almost every newsletter received I hear about elderly Jazzmen, ill, in hospital, returning from hospital, or dying. 

Please don’t get the impression that I’m against you reporting this news...................just the opposite, I think it’s important, and allows people to keep up-to-date, and in touch. Your reports allow us to make contact with people who may be sick, and at least pass on our best wishes for their recovery. When a funeral is announced, it gives us the opportunity of attending as a mark of respect to the musician concerned.

What “Doom and Gloom” does spell out is the fact that the number of very experienced jazz musicians in the U.K., - who have been playing for some fifty years or more, - is diminishing, and obviously must continue to do so. My particular concern is regarding the replacements. From what I hear, there is far more interest, and training, given at an early age to children in other European countries, than in this country. Again I’m generalising to make the point.

We have a similar problem in Cricket, which had almost died out at school level, but is now, I hear today, being given a governmental boost, on the back of donations from the public. Not quite the same, but a similar problem.

Unfortunately I can’t see the government injecting money into Jazz. I think that the Arts as a whole does rather poorly from that source; but surely preserving British Jazz is a far better cause than preserving dissected animals as a “work of art” and winning the Turner Award. Turner must really be revolving at some speed in his grave by now.

Please excuse the digression, again, to make the point.

There must be some young British Bands around, but where? Can’t we get some of them into the North West, and give them some publicity so that we know where and when and can actually go to see/hear them?

Cheers,  John Bratby 14/05/06

David Fox here again after my first letter of 04/01/06, to report back on the advice I received from many helpful people. Using Keith Nichols set of eight play-along discs I have been doing 2 or three hours per day (sometimes more when my long suffering wife is out) listening and trying to pitch the tunes without looking at the dots ,and guess what?? It's working. My ears are starting to function. I now play along without dots and getting a fair amount of it right first time. Most of the tunes seem to be in Bb concert but this is not clear to me until I stop and think about it. When The first note rings out I can pitch it and most of those following without thinking about what they are. I have been lucky to be guided by Barry Booth with weekly lessons. He plays Jazz Trombone and is also a dots reader in the same wind band as myself.  Improvisation is another task altogether, but I can extemporize a bit on the more simple tunes. It is now an obsession.

To the Jazzers who gave the advice I thank you.

Dave Fox 14/05/06

Dear Fred,

Just a few lines that may help some of your recent correspondents, particularly trumpet players new to the world of jazz. My advice is to get hold of Mart Rodger's recent CD's "Tasty Jazz" and "Solos" pronto!

This terrific band must be one of the very best of its kind anywhere in the world, and is reminiscent of the World class bands of Alex Welsh in the 50's and 60's.

These offerings by Mart and his lads are the perfect example of how Traditional Jazz should be played, (no I'm not on any commission, I just like the great music).

Along with Mart's superb clarinet and Eric Brierley's driving trombone, Allan Dent's trumpet lead, shows exactly what is required to lead an Ensemble. This front line combined with a rock solid inventive Rythym section, is indeed a joy to behold. Doom and Gloom, No chance!! Having said that it takes a long, long time and much sweat to achieve this standard of music, but nothing of lasting value is ever easy, is it?

All the best
Jimmy Smith 30/05/06

And now for the good news. On Mon 19th June, the Savannah Jazz Band played at Eagley Jazz Club in Bolton. Over eighty people attended the event, and the Savannah obliged with a terrific evening of storming jazz. One of the highlights of the evening was when John Meehan left his seat behind the drums and invited 12 year old Philip Mills, from Bolton, to join the band. John said, "We like to encourage young people whenever we can, and young Philip has improved greatly since we last invited him to sit in". Philip joined the band for two numbers, before returning to join his grandparents in the audience.

Fred Burnett 20/06/06

24/08/06

Greetings from sunny Spain (where it ain't half hot, Mum - to coin a phrase!)

It was with some trepidation that I keyed up 'doom and gloom' at the suggestion of our band's reedman Dick Crooks (from SouthAMPTON, not SouthPORT). Mightily relieved, however, to see that the site doesn't totally live up to the title.

In particular, Malcolm Hogarth's comment on the Hungarian scene took us back a couple of decades. The seven-foot-tall Russian soldiers still patrolled the streets of Budapest when we were last there, and it has doubtless changed a lot since those days - when you could wander around at two in the morning and have absolutely no fear of being mugged or molested in any way. At that time, we were fortunate in making the acquaintance of Sandor Benko and his band, who belted out great Jazz in the then very East-European scene. We've kept up that contact ever since and if you want to see where they're at today, do look at their web site where all will be revealed. But our happiest memory was of the youngsters (8-18 years old) who played beautifully in the city's parks and squares; I believe they still do so!

Then what a joy to see, in your page of 20/06/06 at Eagley, the pix of a drummer who hasn't yet got a beard (or walking stick). We need to see more such. But as a final nail in the 'D and G' title I'm attaching a pic. of young Bill Smith out here on the Costa Blanca a season or so ago. We really do look forward to his (far too infrequent) visits. I do this to correct the impression given in your photo that Bill's face is ALWAYS concealed behind his trumpet! (But we had to snap it quick - a few seconds later it was concealed behind a half-litre of San Miguel - the local beer!!!)

Keep up the good work

Best of Wishes

John Westwood

The Venues

05/09/06

I read with interest Colin Masons message regarding the closure of the Rosegrove Unity Club due to the lack of spending at the bar by the patrons. This seems to be a problem faced by most of the jazz venues, in our own area the local bands have had to relocate constantly for exactly the same reason, free loaders coming in and having a good night dancing and listening to the music and spending practically nothing over the bar. Most of these people use the same excuse ( we are driving so we cant drink) that is rubbish, I myself don't drink as I am driving but I make sure the bar gets some revenue by buying soft drinks, after all the bar makes as much profit on soft drinks and bottled water as they do on alcoholic drink. If the venue does not have a cover charge, as most don't it is essential that enough money passes over the bar to cover overheads such as light heat, bar staff etc. and make a small profit. A lot of the bands run a ballot and the proceeds from this helps to pay the musicians, however if that is the total expenditure of some of the patrons, and it is ( I noticed one table at a venue where the people were drinking tap water with ice) if this sort of practice continues for any length of time it ultimately results in the closure of the venue.

Lets face it, the owners of the club or bars are not a charity, and when you add it all up a few drinks purchased each night costs no more than a ticket to the cinema. In New Orleans they have the right idea: 3 tunes per set and it is obligatory to buy at least one drink per set or else vacate your seat. 

George Smyth, Belfast    

22/09/06 - Hello Fred.

Just to add to the previous comment on the Doom and Gloom page. I end most sets I perform (unless it is not a suitable enviroment to do so) with a plea to the audience to support our art. I ask them to spread the word and to bring a friend. I ask them to tell to landlord of all the establishments we play at exactly how much it means to them to have live jazz available.

Why should it be down to the musicians to do all the hard work! At The Jazz Preservation Society in Sheffield (Every Friday, 8:30 - 11-00pm, The Nether Edge Hotel on Montgomery Road in Sheffield) we have an excellent, and very welcome input from our loyal audience. If trad/dixie/New Orleans jazz is to survive for the next decade then we need audience help. Too often have I played at a venue that calls itself a Jazz Club, but there is no club mentality: the band organise the event and play for peanuts, the audience come and go as they please, and expect the band to be there the following week. We need to work together. I am a young (35yr old) band leader. I need my audience to help me preserve what we do and love so dearly, and would invite comments and advice from anyone. If, however, you disagree with my plea, I would ask, very earnestly, to think about your reply before it is published on this site. If you wish to privately discuss my comments then you can email me at southsidejazz@hotmail.com (Fred: please leave my address intact as I want the responses of your readers).

Help us, the bands, to preserve jazz. PLEASE!

Regards,

Wil Robinson           

20/07/07 - "I see that the Manchester Jazz Festival is almost on us again", writes Moe Green. "I have not seen this year's programme yet but I imagine that older jazz will be so thin on the ground as to be non-existent as in previous years. This is the only festival I know of that totally ignores Trad, Dixieland and Swing and I am dubious of the provenance of some of the featured bands. Where do these bands play ? Certain musicians seem to play in more than one band. How come the organizers seem to be totally unaware of the good, working jazz bands that are around ? Has anybody tried to contact these stalwart supporters of jazz to see what the answer is ? I have just read an article about the Festival in the M. E. N. entitled ' You don't have to don a beret to enjoy some free cool jazz ' What's this obsession with ' cool ' it was always cropping up on the late ( thankfully ) Jazz F. M. Apart from a few outings by Miles I prefer my jazz hot ! The article also states that Manchester has a healthy jazz scene ' thanks to the festival' .I think not ! I feel a bit better now.

21/07/07 - After the item about M/cr Jazz Festival and the lack of Traditional Jazz  John Bratby writes, "some weeks after the commencement of "The Jazz".............and after listening, during the day, to the type of music broadcast, I wrote to them asking why they didn't play any "Traditional Jazz", pointing out that maybe the largest segment of their listeners during the day is made up of retired people. Now generally retired people are of a certain age, the age group who celebrated this type of music in the 50s/60s, and who form by far and away the largest part of the audience at Jazz Clubs, Concerts, etc. I asked them politely why they did not support this group of people. Surprisingly enough, after some months, I'm still waiting for their reply". 

23/07/07 - "Hi Fred, I noticed the remarks made on content of the M/cr Jazz Festival, I agree that jazz as we know it is conspicuous by its absence in both the nwest.org jazz site and the festival but unfortunately the funding which these organisations enjoy comes with stringent conditions eg. All music must be innovative, new, diverse, and cover all ethnic genre, and there is no room for movement. It does make one wonder is it worth it?  Note - it is also apparent in the new "Llangollen jazz festival" - Ron Johnson

24/07/07 -  Don Bridgewood writes, " ... what about the rubbish which masqueraded as the music on the BBC 'jazz?' awards programme. I wouldn't insult a noble dish by referring to it as tripe!".

26/07/07 - "Hi Fred, I have seen comments regarding the Manchester Jazz Festival and I have corresponded with the organiser a year or two ago. He is under the impression that Traditional Jazz has enough jazz festivals and therefore has no intention of including it in the Manchester event. I daren't write anything about "proper jazz" for fear of upsetting friends. Has anyone considered we should lobby the sponsors of the event. Manchester Council are big sponsors and so are The Musicians Union. I left the union years ago". - Mart Rodger

28/07/07 - Don Bridgewater should feel free to describe the music of the BBC Jazz awards as "tripe". He is entitled to his views.of course,and as tripe is traditionally served with a generous sprinkling of vinegar, it would amply complement his acidic opinion! Cheers, Phil Yates.

26th July 2007 - Dear Fred,

Regarding recent comments by John Bratby, Ron Johnson, Don Bridgewood and Moe Green concerning the absence of traditional jazz from recent festivals in Manchester and elsewhere, it seems to me that if we want our music to survive we really must avoid representing it as music for "retired people" who "celebrated it during the fifties and sixties". That only reinforces the common prejudice that it's all old hat and only of interest to the elderly. It also means, sadly, that it will be dead within the next twenty years or so.

What needs to be stressed, I would argue, is the relevance of early jazz to today's jazz audience, of whatever age. As in every art form, all jazz "styles" - including what is often decribed as free jazz - involve creative innovation within strictly-observed boundaries, or limitations. In fact it's the limitations that define the styles. New Orleans jazz was heard and felt as something wild and free (and noisy and undisciplined), pushing back the boundaries of earlier forms.Then, as it became more acceptable, successive broadenings and narrowings of the limitations within which it worked gave us the Dixieland and Chicago variants, the New York innovations of people like Eddie Condon and Teddy Wilson (all still surely acceptable to traditional jazz enthusiasts) and the coming of the big bands, where the likes of Charlie Parker, Dizzie Gillespie and Charles Mingus were nurtured ...

In other words, the music that dominates the festivals today harks back to the music that we still enjoy, and would not have been possible without it. Traditional jazz is as relevant to contemporary music as Schoenberg to Stockhausen, Mahler to Schoenberg, Beethoven to Mahler, Mozart to Beethoven, Bach to Mozart and Hildegard of Bingen to Bach, and the musicians who are working innovatively today within the limits of traditional jazz forms are doing something every bit as valid as artists such as Emma Kirkby and Christopher Hogwood who continue to explore the possibilities of the earliest "classical" forms. They are still included in classical music festivals, and no-one would dare to suggest that their music was old hat.

But of course it works both ways. If we want the organisers of jazz festivals to respect and include the early jazz that we like, we must at least be prepared to tolerate the music that they prefer, however little we may be able to understand it. To dismiss it, even obliquely, as "tripe" is to provoke in them the very attitude that we want to challenge. If we wouldn't include their music in our jazz festivals, why on earth should we expect them to include our music in theirs?

Allan Wilcox

31/07/07 - 

Alan Wilcox makes some very relevant points with which I agree. It doesn't do jazz any favours by promoting how old we are ! He makes an interesting point concerning classical music. Of course it can be traced from Hildergard of Bingen through Handel on and on to Stockhausen and beyond just as jazz from Bolden to Louis to Don Cherry and beyond can to. The thing is that the likes of Christopher Hogwood and the Music of the Age of Enlightment and other similar orchs. usually playing period instruments are accepted throughout classical music by all ages but early jazz is listened to only by early people ! Discuss and come up with a solution. 

Moe Green.

Sorry but I for one at 77 years old don't care about whether I am doing favours or not I just want to get older and older and play that music we all love more and more and some of us improve, after all when the musicians and the punters have had a few bevvies they think we are great and so do we.

Unwin Nunns

31/07/07

Hi Fred, I hope I'll be the first of many to thank Allan Wilcox for his very sensible and concise assessment of this continuing debate. His comparison with differing styles and periods of classical music is particularly apt. Classical concertgoers have never been as hidebound as their jazz counterparts. If the music of Mozart and Shostakovitch appears on the same programme, no one bats an eyelid.

This is why I find it so hard to understand the hostility expressed by so many people who enjoy and support traditional jazz towards the many succeeding styles it engendered. In the same way as Allan illustrates the linear development from Hildegard of Bingen to Stockhausen, there is the same type of link from Buddy Bolden through to Ornette Coleman and all his recent successors. No one is saying it should all be liked and enjoyed by everyone, just acknowledged and respected. Allan is also right to say that this is a two-way street, and that the importance of traditional music should be better appreciated by those who play and listen to more recent styles. We know that the music of Oliver, Armstong, Beiderbecke and Morton sounds as fresh and original today as it did 80 years ago whether in its original recorded form or in our limited attempts to reproduce it, but our problem remains one of attitude and presentation.

All previously successful revivals of the music have included an injection of original compositions in the traditional style ( Spanier, Watters, Murphy, Lyttelton) as well as the adaptation of a large number of popular songs of the day. We tend to forget that most of the "trad" repertoire mainly comprises American pop songs of the 20s and 30s. Some original pieces are being composed by contemporay bands but more are needed. The presentation of pop songs continued into the 60s and 70s (Kenny Ball- "When I'm 64" Alex Welsh "Tie A Yellow Ribbon") and several British bands have recently begun to present a variety of Country & Western style songs which translate extremely well into a Trad style. 

"Americana" is the term now used to describe the wide span of original American music from folk, hillbilly, cajun, country, blues ,gospel and (dare I say it?) early jazz. It's a marketing ploy by the record companies of course, but could nevertheless be a lifeline for our music. All these styles of music are being played live in pubs and clubs the length and breadth of this country and the following is considerable, not by kids on the club scene either but by young adults from the mid 20s upto the 55+ baby boomers. This is a whole new audience which is open and receptive to many styles of music and I believe more traditional jazz bands should work towards playing in these venues.

But please, some things have to change. Allan mentions the common prejudice of the music being seen as "old hat". I prefer to call it "old waistcoat"! Why oh why do some bands still insist on wearing this ridiculous gear and in such headache inducing colours as well? With their equally terrible shirts, ties and sometimes even straw boaters, don't they realise how totally naff they look? How can they expect their music to be taken seriously, dressed like that? If we need to wear uniforms at all (and I don't think we do) then smart/casual should be the order of the day and not something which looks like it came from a fancy dress hire shop. Would you expect to see the young guys in Dixi or Richard Bennett's band wearing anything different than they do? I rest my case!

Finally, when I first wrote on this page way back in 2003, I said that to match with the volume expectations of modern audiences, bands should up the amplification and play louder. I haven't changed my opinion on this. I think about three times the current average decibel output would be about right. Why should we do this? We need to be audible outside in the street then more people will come in and listen !

Phil Yates.

31 July 2007 

Dear Fred and Readers

In St. Ann's Square, Manchester, just a few days ago, I was determined to, and finally got to speak to, a principal Official of the new MANCHESTER "JAZZ" FESTIVAL. I bent his ear with my gripes about the distinct lack of older styles of Jazz in the Manchester Jazz Festival - in fact a total lack. The Official I spoke to, if one looks at the situation analytically, offered a valid argument as to the complete turn-around in the content of Manchester's present festival. The body that organises the festival in recent years saw that other Jazz festivals throughout the country feature nothing but Traditional or Dixieland style bands. This, some years ago, made them decide not to go down that road for Manchester festivals. So they, instead, produced a total inversion of the bias that they were criticising. This, in a City with a Jazz History second to none in Britain is the biggest slap in the face our oldest Jazzers - some now in their 80s whom I have met and interviewed - could ever receive! I personally don't believe that it was up to this Festival's organising body to deliberately exclude earlier Jazz, or to ignore decades of Jazz History in our City, any more than any previous North West Region festival organisers should have excluded Bop, Fusion, Funk, Progressive, Mainstream or other variants. Another argument by the Official stressed that only groups that can come up with new, original or unusual approaches or projects in music will gain entry to the Festival. The new organisers do not recognise the past; older forms of Jazz improvisation are meaningless now. Yet, they are ALL forms of Jazz, without exception. However, it has happened, and it hurts! 

It is because of this rationale and the current attitudes of much of the Media, that I am writing THE MANCHESTER JAZZ SCENE 
(1919-1990s) and a series of Rolls of Honour of Manchester's a) Jazz Musicians/Vocalists, b) Jazz Bands and c) Jazz Clubs/Venues, covering the above period. The latter will be published in "JUST JAZZ" Magazine when ready (now still about half-way). The former is more of a problem; the publishing climate in Britain is difficult, unless it involves 'best-seller' material - which Jazz History isn't. At least, locally, it all goes back to the time of the first local Jazz broadcast in the 1920s, from a studio in The Parsonage, (BBC Station 2ZY). The 1919 facet involves a little-known Jazz outfit in a Rusholme venue. It was a band said to have aped the Original Dixieland Jazz Band - based at the Hammersmith Palais in London between 1919 and 1922. The first non-commercial Jazz band emerges at Manchester Grammar School in 1936, and in the same year record-recitals and live performances in a Jazz appreciation circle take place, not by locals, but by Nat Gonella and even Coleman Hawkins. However, the main body of local performers and bands begins to evolve and grow with a vengeance out of the 1942 New Revival attributed locally to Harry Giltrap (banjo/Guitar) and Eric Lister (clarinet/vocals). The first recognised local revivalist band was the Delta Rhythm Kings. Modernist Ken Wray was in that! By 1946, the forerunner of Derek Atkins Dixielanders was being formed. The cut-off decade (the 1990s) reflects the takeover in the City by the 'New Wave' - by then exclusively Modern Jazz-orientated. That said, many old Jazzers are still around. Bottom line here: How can officials in any organisation involved in Culture, in a city like Manchester, ignore a wealth of Jazz History that spans eight to nine decades? What have they done with our very own Heritage? 

The totals for the Rolls of Honour (all single-line entries), so far have for just up to 1974, yielded for a) 950+, for b) 340+ and for c) 
130+; these totals will grow by the time I reach the 1990s cut-off period. The idea behind the work is to ensure that all the people who created the Manchester Jazz scene are not simply consigned to oblivion, because it suits the Media and present Jazz organisations to forget they ever existed. Bill Birch, a retired journalist, is writing about some 25 years of Modern Jazz within my above time-scale. His period starts at about 1950. He and I were involved in the recent Joe Palin Get Well/Tribute (see link below), that the above Official and I spoke about in St. Ann's Square. Having studied the figures, so far, it is clear that the percentage of performers of Modern or Mainstream, Swing or Big-Band Jazz locally, like Joe Palin, Alan Hare, etc., is far down the scale compared to the performers of the earlier Jazz - in all facets. Maybe this is why the imbalance seemed at one time like a bias against the Modern side, without actually being so. 

palin_j.htm 

But, at one time not too long ago, that I can still remember, there was a fair balance at local festivals. It is all Jazz, of one type or another, and I still think it should be balanced, and all sides should respect each other. It all evolved from the same roots, back in about 1892 in Storyville. That said, some of the 'New Wave' Jazz people in the City are producing excellent sounds. Nevertheless, to ignore and to fail to represent that now rapidly ageing provenance, is to ignore that Slavery ever existed, and all the troubles that those blacks had to endure for centuries. Jazz was, and is, their cry for help; their lament. It is now an ancient cry, but it is still relevant today. That is what gave rise to Jazz in the first place; that also means to the Jazz that is now played on the Manchester Jazz Festival scene - which the present 'all-Modernist' incumbents inherited thanks to the sweat of former jazzmen and women (playing ALL styles) - who set up the Revival locally in the 1940s, and many who - like Joe Palin, Johnny Roadhouse and others - taught the teachers who taught the present modernists! 

As a lament, the roots of Jazz music go back much further - into the 1600s and Ghana and other points of origin in Africa. Jazz - as an art form - of course, only starts in 1892 and only in the USA at first. What happened since then is Jazz History, in all of its facets. Are people like me, writing about all of it, wasting our time? The present local Jazz climate would seem to point in that direction. I wrote to the BBC and the Arts Council (North West) in Bridge St., Manchester about my projects, and NOTHING!!! The BBC - when after four letters to specific people were just ignored - and I tackled the PRO staff about it, I finally got a reply from one of the specific presenters at Oxford Road, which came by answerphone message. There was an apology, but the bottom line was "Sorry. Not interested in this type of material". It is ironic that I am using some of the material put together by a local Jazz critic - Alan Stevens - who along with John Featherstone in the 70s produced "Jazz a Plenty" and "Jazz Parade" at those very same Oxford Road studios. This was all on local Jazz; I was playing on one of their outside broadcasts at the Victoria Hotel, Hardman Street, in October 1972 with Randy Colville's Old Fashioned Love Band (Mainstream/Dixieland). See "Jazz Extras" and "Reminiscing" in Fred's breathtaking website (with earphones on to hear "South Rampart Street Parade" and the voice of BBC Presenter, the late John Featherstone). Now, however, they're not interested, not even in their own BBC History, or deceased staff members. What can one do? 

Joe Silmon-Monerri

02/08/07

Can I support fully the letter from my fellow-bassist Allan Wilcox? I'm not sure I can add anything to his words of wisdom. Helpful contributions from Moe Green, Joe Silmon (Happy Birthday, Joe) and Phil Yates. I agree with Phil's suggestion of playing modernish tunes - there is plenty of suitable material by the Beatles, Burt Bacharach, Billy Joel, Randy Newman and others. I have to plead guilty to appearing occasionally in a waistcoat despite my strong dislike of uniforms (stemming back to school days in the Combined Cadet Force which was voluntary but you had to join!). I can't agree with upping the amplification. Firstly, I think it is the proliferation and volume of "music" (muzak) which has caused such indifference to quality live performances; secondly, I think jazz is too subtle a music to withstand some, or all, of the instruments being loudly amplified (musicians can't hear all of what their colleagues are doing unless there is a very efficient monitoring system); thirdly, there are now many instances of older pop musicians suffering severe hearing problems through years of exposure to over-amplification. I think we should exploit our acoustic advantages, reaching the parts that amplified bands cannot reach. Where I DO agree with Phil is in being more professional when we have to amplify; carrying out a proper sound check (and adjustment) before performance and checking while playing - it means at least TWO players (front liners from a sextet) venturing into the auditorium, or a reliable assistant.

John Muskett

3rd August 2007

Dear Fred and Readers

I overdid the writing last time on the Jazz Festival issue, so this will be brief-er, only to remark on John Muskett's honest-to-a-fault contribution about Allan Willcox's letter. John is spot on in his criticism, and his comments - never offensive or acerbic - wouldn't look out of place in speeches to a convention of heads of diplomatic missions abroad. I agree with everything he says and admire his 100% clarity. I particularly agree about the matter of objecting to 'upping the amplification' and remember my first encounter with this then future 'curse' at the Cavern in the 1960s with the "wall of sound" (too many A-weighted decibels) from those four massive speakers that the Beatles crammed in, which "helped" to set a precedent for future Pop listeners. It produced nothing but noise! That and the incessant screaming made it impossible to hear any words or subtleties - if any - in the music that we later heard properly processed by A&R experts and purified for a final and much more refined and actually melodic result on disk. I'm sure Moe Green will remember how difficult it was to discern anything at the Cavern that the Beatles sang. I also agree on the question of uniforms, as put by John, and agree with Phil Yates on this too. There's nothing that drives youngsters away from listening - and watching - a Traditional J/B more than multi-coloured waist-coats or jackets and boaters (harking back to Dukes of Dixieland days). I've heard their comments about them. They detest them, especially when the hair is grey - or is no longer there! - and we all look the age we have reached! Also if we sound tired and take too long between numbers. I'm sure a neat, sober hatless form of dresswear - a tasteful dark jumpsuit? - would remove most of the visual stigma that deters them, it would make us look more respectable and make them concentrate on the actual music! Thanks for the greeting, John. Come along! 

Joe Silmon

08/08/07

What if:

1. Ken Colyer hadn't grown a beard and sat down to play?
2. Louis Armstrong had taken up the banjo instead?
 
Cheers, Jon Critchley

09/08/07

Hello there Fred, Regarding the general discussions recently on musical content etc. I thought maybe the item attached may be of interest to the many contributors to this topic. Albeit some 40yrs back, we did find a considerable jazz interest among the so called "long haired" fraternity at this very well attended festival. Perhaps there is hope yet for us jazzers be it traditional, dixie, mainstream or modern who knows?

This item was in a copy of Crescendo magazine written by Alan Stevens who was the Jazz reporter/critic for the Manchester Evening news in those days

The Johnny Leslie Trio—Les Emmett (piano), John Stavordale (drums) and Derek Pool (bass) - were awarded first place in the competitive jazz classes of the recent Alderley Edge Musical Festival. Runners-up were the Denis Range Seven. I reckon most of ‘the ‘long hairs’ who flock to these festivals were surprised by the technique, polish and musical know-how of the six competing bands. The Melody Maker cup for the most outstanding musician was won by Derek Pool. Winning trophies is no new experience for bassist Derek, With. Frank Etchells’ Quads. he won many awards in dance band contests several years ago in the Manchester area, but he was a trombonist then. Over a decade ago he and I used to play together with one of Manchester’s pioneer jazz bands, the Smoky City Stompers.

John Stavordale.

16/09/07

Hi Fred, I have read with interest, every message on this topic and would like to add a few comments from the perspective of an audience member rather than a muso. 

Starting at what was, for me anyway, the beginning, there wasn't much to do for young people on Merseyside in the fifties. Even coffee bars were yet to be invented. Personally, I had absolutely no talent, couldn't even sing in tune but had great admiration for anyone who could produce a recognisable sound from a musical instrument.. But, the attraction of lying to my Mum to go to the Temple on Sunday night was more about the excitement of live music and the atmosphere it created rather than the technical correctness of what we were listening to. We neither knew nor cared if a bum note happened. We probably had heard the music before on records, Radio Luxembourg or even AFN but nothing compared to the smoke, one or maybe more drinks, meeting people and getting hot and sweaty leaping around to our local heroes.  (Thanks for the memories Merseys and Bags Watmough).  At the time it seemed any one with half an ear was teaching themselves to play any way they could. Long before the Beatles and their contemporaries arrived on the scene and spoiled it all, we had voiced our opinions of the "Commercialisation" of the music. We condemned Knackers Bilge (To quote George Melly) for his bowlers and waistcoats even then. He and Kenny ball were thought to have sold out for making saleable recordings. Monty Sunshine, who never got the real credit he deserved for Petite Fleur at least continued to play with Chris Barber. Mick Mulligan was probably one of the the least talented trumpet players on the scene but even in his unkempt appearance, managed to create, with the Magnolia Jazz Band and George, an atmosphere like no other. Clinton Ford sang lots of stuff which could hardly be called jazz but we loved him anyway. 

So what happened? We, the audience, grew up. Our musical tastes, finances, situations and obligations changed. There were more important things to do. So when you get just a few older people on a nostalgia trip at your gigs you shouldn't be too surprised. Two generations later the music is still the same, the in -band jokes are still the same but your core audience isn't there anymore. The young people today have more to say, do and hear than we ever did so the choices they have are huge and varied. There will always be a dedicated few who will hopefully keep the music alive but it was, even then, a limited audience for the music you play. I don't recognise the name Ian Royle but it was the final paragraph of his tribute to Alan Hare which caused me to write this. While people who call themselves musicians of any genre continue to put down the millions of dedicated fans of anyone who doesn't fit into their narrow world, nothing will change. I wonder if his family will be living comfortably off his royalties thirty years after his death. Maybe, but I don't think so. I was a couple of years older than the average Elvis or Beatles fan but cannot close my ears to, nor ignore the attraction they had, and still have for so many. Remember Merle Haggard? Probably not as he "deserted" to C& W and became rich and famous.. he moved on.. and so have we... By all means give the youngsters who want to play your music the chance to learn but don't expect the kind of crowd once seen at Art School dances at the Tower in New Brighton or at the Student's Union in Liverpool.. 

I wish you all good luck and remember "What goes round, comes round" The music will never die, it's just having a little rest.... like me.

Adrienne Ferst

18/09/07

Well said Adrienne Ferst ! 

You are spot on. It is interesting to hear from someone the other side of the floodlights, so to speak. She mentions the excitement of live music which is unknown to a lot of the present generation. but it is also true that today's kids have far more to occupy their time than we did in the '50s. What passed for a great night out then would probably be regarded with scorn by the youth of today. It is also true when she says the jokes are the same two generations later. I might add that so are the tunes ! Some bands should realize that there is life after Bourbon St. Parade. The halcyon days of the 50s. and 60s. are gone along with, sadly, some of the punters and musicians. I think we lost our chance in the 70s. We were all still relatively young and healthy we were still playing and listening and never gave a thought to trying to attract the then current young generation to jazz and now, as we know, it is far too late to attract a meaningful number. I know we will never again attract large crowds of students to Rag Balls and other Uni functions but remember, J. S. Bach and Handel fell out of favour for more than 100yrs. so if you are still around in 2107 you might be in for a surprise! 

Moe Green.

Continued .................        

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