Doom & Gloom in the Jazz World
Part I
D&G 1 : D&G 2
: D&G 3
: D&G 4
: D&G 5
: D&G 6
: D&G 7 :
D&G 8 : D&G 9
On 13th Oct 2002, Trevor Hodgson, Canada, created a response on this site when he wrote in reply to an email announcing the death of Dick Warton of The Salt City Jazzmen from Northwich.-
I didn't know Dick or any of those names cited on the numerous similar messages you sent to your readers during the past few weeks. However, it makes me wonder what will happen to our music in the next few years. Most of the musicians I know are either pensioners or very near to being so and 80% of the audience fall into that same category. 20 or 30 years from now will anyone play traditional jazz and will there be anyone around who cares?
And it is still rippling. So here are some of the responses, perhaps you would like to add your comments.
14/10/02
Now, now Trevor!
Listen to Allen Beechey's Bright Stars new CD - and know that there are scores of others out there who ain't had the chance to record but still are interested! In the ranks of Terry Perry's "Big Easy" band there are two teenagers who are up there with the best, - and although they usually play in what we used to call a "modern jazz" style thirty years ago, Johnny Boston & Jim Evans are both capable of turning out superb traditional jazz when called upon to do so.
So it ain't all doom & gloom!
Tony Davis
08/02/03
I was just reading through some of the older messages on your site when I found one from a Mr Trevor Hodgson about Jazz musicians getting on a bit. Well, I'm only 32 and I've been involved (on and off) with jazz since I was 13 by which time I had been playing the trombone for just over a year. I started listening to Trad jazz around the same time, being influenced by films like "The Fabulous Dorseys", "High Society" and "It's Trad Dad". Further listening led me to Alex Welsh and the delights of Roy Williams playing, along side that of John Barnes. This in turn led me to Bob Brookmeyer and Gerry Mulligan and so on. I enjoy all facets of jazz up to the Gerry Mulligan era equally and my reason for mentioning my personal journey through Jazz will become apparent in a moment.
I am thoroughly enjoying playing Trad/Dixieland with the Wirrorleans JB in my position as their regular Trombonist and I also play every Sunday afternoon at the 57 Club in Birkenhead and with the Ken Binns band and Tony Davis at the Fort in New Brighton once a month. I also regularly dep with the Peninsula Jazzmen and the Savoy Jazzmen and have played alongside people such as Roy Williams, John Barnes, George Webb, the late Campbell Burnap, Phil Mason, Digby Fairweather and Stan Barker to name but a few. And given the opportunity I would like to play even more, I'll never get any better unless I broaden my horizons and play with different people.
But it is a sad fact that people of my age and younger are not welcomed into jazz in the way that they should be. When I was just getting started I was turned away from bands by certain people (you know who you are) because I was too young or too inexperienced. I also found a pre-occupation with the playing of certain musicians, people were fixated with the likes of Kid Ory, Johnny and Baby Dodds, George Lewis and in particular Ken Colyer. A man, who to my mind, did more to harm British Jazz than anyone before or since. You should let people play as they want to play, not force them to emulate the musicians who have gone before. Jazz is all about self expression, and as soon as someone tells you that you should be copying one of these people, that is when individuality is lost and the music suffers.
This happened to me and it resulted in me walking away from Jazz for what I thought would be forever, a light in me was extinguished, or so I thought. A chance meeting with Roger Higham in West Kirby shortly after the death of Al McDowell, got me going again and I haven't looked back since. But in regards to getting younger people involved, I think we need to get the bands into schools to play for them. But not just to any of the kids, we need to target the GCSE and 'A' level music students and, of course, anyone else who is genuinely interested.
All the best, and I hope you are keeping well.
Andrew MacKenzie (Trombone - Wirrorleans JB)
Not sure I can go along with the anti Ken Colyer bit Andrew, he was my hero. You could say if it wasn't for Ken and the re-releases on Lake Records, I may not have got back into traditional jazz, then where would this web site be? - Fred
08/02/03
I read with interest Andrew McKenzie's contribution. I can only agree with a lot of what he says. I have been playing in bands and run bands since the 50's I am older than Mick Jagger and younger than Charlie Watts. I have always taken a wide interest in jazz but never felt it necessary to emulate any particular style. As to younger musicians my band of a few years ago was a five piece, myself and my bass player Frank Mckee, both over sixty and three under thirties Dan Holden (Banjo) with whom I still play regularly and two Leeds Music College graduates, Adrian Gibson (Trumpet) and Jack Davies (Drums). On one occasion we played a gig at the Whitewater when Frank was away and my dep bass player, Steve Simpson, (currently with the Yarl River I think) was I think at the time also under 30. IS THIS A RECORD?
The overall sound was very much in the New Orleans tradition although I'm sure it might have upset some traddie purists. Was there ever such a thing as pure trad?
Adrian's trumpet playing was maybe more like Leroy Jones particularly when he soloed but what's wrong with "Cream o' the Crop" That's great New Orleans music. Unfortunately Adrian went off to seek his fortune as a professional musician and is believe to have ended up in Disneyland, Florida. Talking about younger musicians after he left us he played for a while with Matt Palmer in Alton Towers.
As to Andrew's comment about Ken Colyer the more I hear of him the more I agree with Andrew. That boring 4 to the bar was never New Orleans. I always recall Andrew Halls comment when I visited New Orleans in 1978. "If it hasn't got a good back beat, it's not Jazz" I'm pretty sure that Ken is also responsible for that curious English folk dance the skip jive! A strange sexless parody of the Jitterbug.
I think too many "trad" musicians regard the younger generation as the enemy. I remember many years ago my band of the time "The Chosen Six" played in Keswick when we had a lot of young Swedish people came in who were into pogo dancing. Most of the guys in the band freaked out. They weren't supposed to be doing that!
Locally I have sometimes played in a heavy metal pub where there are no jazz fans at all but where we got a good reception. I also sometimes jam with rock bands who play in strange keys like A and E. Has anyone else had an experience like this?
Playing with Colin 'Kid' Dawson in Newcastle Central Station round the Christmas tree, a young Geordie lad came up and the conversation went something like this -
GL "Wat d'ye call
that"
Me "Call what"
GL "Wey, that music, like"
Me" Its New Orleans Jazz"
GL "Oh no, that's not Jazz, Aa diven't like Jazz"
Personally I think that the younger generations are getting bored with the
mechanically produced admass stuff that masquerades as music and we should be
prepared to do more to encourage the spread of our music to a much wider
audience.
In the words of
Danny Barker "And I don't bow down, on nobody's ground"
Nick Telfer (Bayou Rhythm Kings)
Hi Fred,
Excellent! At last a page where we can debate the important issues of the day i. e. the state of the music we love. The age issue is concerning, but I wonder if this is merely a British phenomenon. There seems to be no shortage of young musicians playing classic jazz (I hate the term "Trad) in the rest of Europe or in North America. I agree with much of what Andrew says. Although I am older I am too young to have been part of the Trad Boom period and only began playing clarinet by sitting in with local bands in my mid -twenties around 1977. Even then, there was no shortage of "experts" keen to advise me how to play more like George Lewis, most of whom could not play a note on any instrument! I love George's playing. His unique tonal quality and innocent simplicity of style can still bring tears to my eyes, but I don't play like George, I play like me.
This ,of course, will never be good enough for the purist Mafia, who still react with hostility to the sight and sound of a guitar or sax in a classic style band. (Even Brock Mumford in Buddy Bolden's band played guitar, not banjo). This attitude links directly to the general malaise in which we find ourselves at present. I think a lot of young people do enjoy the music when they hear it played live, but the environments tend to discourage them. My band plays in a city centre pub with a lot of passing trade. We regularly see groups of youngsters coming in and I watch their faces light up as they enter the room and hear live music. Then I watch the same faces drop as they look at the rest of the clientele which is around the age of their grandparents. This is a great pity because when they do stay, everyone tends to mix together and a good time is had by all, but this happens all too rarely. I am lucky to play in a venue where the management and the crowd are friendly and welcoming but I know that this does not apply everywhere.
While I disagree with Andrew's opinion of Ken Colyer (Yes he could be ponderous, but listen to the Hamburg 1958 performance of "Gatemouth") his more fundamentalist followers are not exactly the best ambassadors for the music in general. I went to see the Colyer Trust band at the Keswick Festival some years ago and felt as if I was in church. Yes, let's take the music seriously, but at the end of the day, it's got to be fun. There is a particularly distasteful minority who seem to view the bands, music and venues as their own private property. This is typified by the odious practice of reserving tables in public rooms where bands play regularly and often where there is no admission charge .This only serves to perpetuate the clique mentality which again alienates any potential newcomers to the music. For this reason, I do not mourn the recent passing of a long established venue in the Southport area!
Finally, a little nostalgia. Many of us I'm sure, remember the wonderful Wavertree Coffee House, where the Blue Magnolias played throughout the 70s and early 80s in the beautiful Edwardian snooker room (Before the brewery vandalised it). No reserved tables there. If you weren't there at 7.30 for the band starting at 8.30, there were no seats to be had. The room was packed with students, young , middle-aged and pensioners. Apart from swinging like crazy, the band was very loud. A huge wave of sound hit you from the waist up, and that was exciting! People are now used to that level of volume in discos and pubs and clubs where other live music is played, and jazz bands really must get real and start competing on equal terms. Much as it might go against the grain for musicians and punters alike, I'm sorry folks, but we've got to turn it up!
Phil Yates.
Mathew Street Ragtime Band
Dear Fred,
Just a quick note in support of Andrew MacKenzie's recent comments. I was talking to him last week about the same subject and agree with him in all he says except for the Colyer issue. I take his point about the silly reverence in which Colyer's music is held but, nevertheless, the band was exciting to listen to live and, as you say Fred, was no doubt responsible for many people becoming enthusiasts. However, as a musician, I find it hard to understand how so many of us can deliberately confine ourselves to a highly restricted style of playing. The essence of jazz is its nonconformity. evolution and freedom from a straightjacket mentality and I'm always disappointed by the intolerance of many amateur jazz musicians (less so perhaps amongst professionals) to other musical styles. As well as 30 or so years with the Phoenix Jazzmen (Dixieland/Mainstream) and over 4 years with Terry Perry's Big Easy, I play in a rock band and find as much challenge, enjoyment and satisfaction in this idiom as any other despite sideways looks from many jazz musicians when I dare to mention it.
Music is music and we in the jazz world should be as tolerant as (if not more so than) any others. If by such intolerance we discourage young musicians from entering the exciting and rewarding world of playing live jazz, then we've only ourselves to blame if the music dies out.
Keep up the good work with the site. I'll send an update on the Phoenix as soon as I get the photos processed.
Best wishes,
John Hill
Hello Fred,
I'm delighted with the response my words seem to have provoked, but I would just like to clear something up. And that is that, I DON'T dislike Ken Colyer's playing on the whole. But what I was getting at when I said that he did so much to harm jazz, was that when people like him have such a following it is inevitable that people will think that what he plays and everything he says is the be all and end all of the music. The harm was done when Colyer himself did nothing to discourage this from happening in the first place. I don't criticise any of the players I mentioned, I would just discourage people from confining themselves to thinking that you have to be 110 years old, born in New Orleans, American and black just to play jazz. The number of people who think you have to be either Black or American (or even both) just to play jazz is quite ridiculous. Anyone can play jazz, regardless of their colour, religion or geographical origins. Olaf Vas is a good example, I think he's from India or somewhere, is a very fine reed player indeed.
British jazz musicians are among the best in the world and we have frequently produced players who are world beaters. Alex Welsh, Kenny Baker, Roy Williams (In my opinion, there has never been another player anywhere who can match him), George Chisholm (Did you know that the great Benny Carter once said that Chisholm was the best jazz trombone player in the world after Jack Teagarden and he christened him "Little Teagarden"), John Barnes (Superb on Baritone sax), Ronnie Verrell, Alan Ganley, Brian Lemon, Fred Hunt (as good as anyone), Dave Green (along with Niels-Henning Orsted Pedersen, the best Bass player in the world) and the amazing Martin Taylor on guitar.
Andrew MacKenzie
From: Timothy Colwell
Sent: 13 February 2003 20:53
How pleasant to discover your excellent , newsy website, quite by chance. Sadly, we have nothing like it here on the South Coast.
There are a few points in the letters which aroused my interest and I have to concur with most people who think that Dixieland (oh please, do not let us get into arguments about "definitions" :if the description was good enuf for Louis it should be for anyone else!) ) is about to receive the last riffs: within 20 years ...if ,of course, humankind lasts that long....it will probably be considered quaint.
Quite apart from the lack of jazz on the media....when was the last jazz on TV, for instance, apart from the Burns doc ....it may be the demise of the jam session which has had most to do with the difficulty any young player has in making themself known to the more experienced and getting to have an introductory musical conversation, say.? Many years ago I ran such sessions for Southampton City Council and a far-seeing Arts Officer, Will Weston, (now running the
RSC). We had use of the Council's plush Suite, grand
piano, imported Sound System ,Bar/Food and a resident ( paid!) trio ,which was capable of playing all forms of jazz....but well! It was an immense success and very often 200 people and 40 musicians ,from beginner to "name" , would turn up and be organised into ad-hoc groups so that sometimes it seemed like a proper concert. Many long-lasting bands came out of those sessions and I made sure there were no "big-time" antics by
anybody...tho some tried!
When such sessions ARE organised with care they really do work well and pretty near everybody goes home satisfied....it's only when the selfish ,unimaginative or stupid take control that they fail and, sadly, I have watched that happen too often since.
When I started to play tenor (self-taught, in London) I did 6 months solid practice, learned just 3 tunes and went out to blow in any Pub I could find. I sometimes didn't even have to ask to sit in. Even
though they didn't know me ..or my severe limitations(!)....I was never refused ..and it was always the top guys who were the most
encouraging. John Chilton, Bruce Turner ,Phil Seamen and others and, particularly, trumpeter Colin Smith (of
Acker, etc.) who saw my sax case ,came up to me at a crowded Pub Gig of his and asked if I wanted to play. He said , "Do you know
'Struttin with some Barbecue' ? . I shook my head. "Well, come and learn it!" , he replied.
I have never forgotten that warm, wonderful attitude and ,as a bandleader myself later, never refused anyone a chance to blow and by the time I had a 14-piece band it had an age-range of 13 to 73 and I went out of my way to include any young talent I could find and give them the chance to be with the experienced guys.
It is nearly always the players who don't feel threatened who are prepared to encourage...no matter how old. As a final point I remember being at a party gig for Nat Gonella 's Biography He was surrounded by a gaggle of genuflecting Trad-loving hangers-on.! But ,despite...or because of...a lifetime of music Nat's ears were on a 15 year old trombone player, some way away on the stage. He finally turned to this bunch and said ,with some
annoyance," Why don't you shut up and listen to the boy. He's good!"
.......... I was hanging out in a toilet in a pub in
Midhurst, Sussex, co-leading a Sunday lunchtime group with Bobby Wellins. (1976) A gentleman of the working class stood next to me and asked if that what we was playing were jazz? I replied that i thought so.. he then said "I
don't like jazz but I like what YOU'RE playing"
Having read a similar story in your letters, I wonder if this is a common occurrence.? I do know THIS one is absolutely genuine...
I've told it many times and can see it now! but it would be nice to have created a legend!
Tim Colwell
PS. Whilst I'm up North is there anyone who knows ,or knows of, a guitarist called Pete
Sharples, or a drummer called Roger Comerford? I last saw them at RAF Jever, in Germany, in 1960. They owe me a few beers!
Have just come across the Andrew Mckenzie comments on youngsters in “traditional” jazz and would like to add my two pen’orth.
We run Jazz Club 90 at the Harp Hotel in Albrighton, Shropshire and for some time have had a policy of booking as many young musicians as we can. We started off planning to book all the younger soloists, singers and bands mentioned by Phil Mason in his articles on “Youth in Jazz” in Just Jazz magazine. This we were able to do with the help of a Lottery grant (hence the later part of this letter) and had wonderful entertainment from the likes of Jonny Boston and his Boston Tea Party, James Evans and his New Orleans Wizards, Richard Bennett’s New Orleans Jazz Band, Allan Beechey’s Bright Stars, Dunstan Coulber on clarinet, T.J.Johnson’s Bourbon Kick and Daniel Smith’s Blues Band. We can also add singers Mellow Avstreih, Rachael Pennell and Cate “Jazz Baby” Cody.
Some of these bands play in the “classic” jazz style, others such as Bourbon Kick and New Orleans Wizards put their own interpretation on New Orleans music.
Many of these youngsters have been back again "by public demand"!
The important thing is that they all play or sing brilliant, exciting music with great talent and enthusiasm, things which should be encouraged if only to allay the fears of the “Jonahs” who foresee the demise of this music we all love.
Part of our youth policy has meant we have booked several school big bands and the following comments from our web site are I hope worthy of inclusion:
Our Lottery funded session with Wolverhampton Grammar School Big Band and Central City Jazzmen was a tremendous success.
The school band held the audience spellbound for an hour with a mix of big band standards, some latin and some rock numbers which had everyone calling for more.
The musicians ranged in age from 14-17 years and were a credit to their school and themselves. Confidence shone like a beacon in everything they did, whether as the full band or playing solos, even an alto solo by a young man making his first appearance with the band and by the 14 year old drummer! Solos on sax, trumpet, trombone, piano and even harmonica(!) by the more established members of the band demonstrated the depth of talent within the band.
This confidence was equally obvious in the bands singers, two girls and one young man who’s performances belied their age.
Those of you that know Jazz Club 90 at the Harp will remember that the “stage” area is rather small (a six-piece band sometimes looks crowded!) so to get such a performance out of 19 musicians and 3 singers was nothing short of miraculous!
The youngsters were obviously delighted to be playing in the more intimate atmosphere of a small jazz venue rather than the school hall or similar large stage.
None of their talent would be harnessed without the commitment of the youngsters, their parents and especially their teacher Andy Proverbs. The hours of unpaid “overtime” that Andy must put in to fine tune this band are proof of his belief in the young musicians out there.
Hopefully this talent will spill over into our sort of jazz later on.
It was no mean feat to follow the big band but Central City Jazzmen did a fine job, no doubt spurred on by the fact that many of the youngsters stayed behind to hear much more experienced musicians playing a more traditional style of jazz.
The same comments apply to another session featuring Ridgewood High School and Severnside Jazz Band
The purpose of this report is to emphasise that Lottery funding is available through the “Awards for All” scheme and is ideal for encouraging young musicians to sample the world of jazz clubs as the Arts Council puts a lot of emphasis on using Lottery funding for youth projects. Our latest grant was for a mix of young and established musician sessions throughout the year. I realize that some clubs have done similar projects or workshops for young musicians, using Lottery money, but I would encourage any other clubs to apply for funding, the forms are not too difficult to fill in and help is readily available from Regional Arts Boards. This is particularly applicable to the clubs who are very much “traditional” or “classic” jazz clubs, encouraging young musicians such as school big bands could be encouraging the very life-blood of your traditional club!
Remember, if you don’t ask
you won’t get!
Regards
John Howell
Tel: 01902 756158
e-mail:
jazzclub90@supanet.com
Web site:
http://www.jazzclub90.co.uk
Reading Andrews and other comments in Doom and Gloom,
I agree with most of everything said, New musicians, young or old, need to be encouraged,
Some bands try to emulate a famous band or musician from the past,
Nothing wrong in that, and its nothing new, look at "Stars in your eyes" for example, (for those who cannot see any further than Trad Jazz, its a TV show where new
look-alike talent, mimic, famous stars old and new )
I have always tried to encourage genuine" talent, not the ---- "I can sing the saints"--- brigade who want to get up in pubs, (we had one a few weeks ago,
didn't we -- Andrew?)
In my early years learning the banjo, I started taking lessons, and joined a BMG, (Banjo, Mandolin, Guitar) Orchestra, with written scores, a conductor, etc,
regrettably the BMG folded, and I was left out in the cold,
I like the banjo, despite the jokes, and I like the Dixieland" sound, but I did not understand jazz, so I started to visit pubs were trad Jazz was being played, I met a fellow banjo Len Smith from the BMG, playing with "The Canal Street Jazz Band" he gave some chords, told me to learn them, and sit in next week,
As with all new entrants, I was a bag of nerves, and on the day I fluffed it, I was then given a tape, told to
concentrate on the Saints, and come back when I was more confident,
After a couple of weeks I went back, this time Len sat in with me, two banjos", it was fantastic, this gave me all the confidence I needed, still
a little apprehensive, but I had afoot in the door,
Then with a few numbers under my belt I started to tote my banjo around the local Jazz pubs, and sit in when asked, but I still got a cold shoulder from some bands,
Later Len Smith retired from Canal Street" and I was asked to take his place, My point is, without some encouragement from Len, and many others, I would not be were I am now, I am not the banjo player I would like to be, and
probably never will be, I still drop chords, fluff solos, forget lyrics, lose the plot,
I would like to think I have also done my bit to encourage musical talent, namely Margie Presst" I used to take her along to the different venues, introduce her and encourage her to get up and sing, and we have nearly always been in the same bands since,
Back to the "Stars in your eyes" theme, the show produces some excellent artists, some good stuff has come out of it,
ie, Frank Sinatra, the best your going to get, seeing as Frank is no longer with us, As good as it is, its not original, but again its a foot in the door, and hopefully they will find there own style and "do it there way,"
I play along with that young " whipper snapper", trombone, Andrew with the
WirrOrleans. I was with him one night when he was told he played like some famous trombone player, and he got quite annoyed at this, and said I play like me!, and no one else! I do not think the
WirrOrleans emulate anyone, and I like to think we are different, we do all the usual
stompers, but also numbers selected by our Musical Director Rodger Higham" that very few if any, other bands do,
There are some younger musicians on the jazz scene, Rebecca McShane, from Manchester, (coached by Ian Royal I believe), who often deps for Rodger, not only an excellent trumpet, but also an attractive young lady, how young I would not like to guess, but I can safely say her dad is about my age,
(41?) Also, another comes to mind, Simon Jones, 23 at the last count, sousaphone, trombone, and now I believe trumpet, sadly he now works and
lives down south, and Jimmy Lucas (tpt) has two very talented sons, one plays trumpet with the Terry Perry Big Easy band, another is an excellent drummer, and often gigs with
The Rioters Jazz Band. Talking about Terry
Perry's Big Easy Band, at least three members are under
20, What about the youth jazz orchestras, such as Wigan, and others, the Juvenile" Jazz Band about 15 years ago, all teenagers at the time, gig at a Buckingham Palace Private party, the Jazz Guitarist, Gary Potter, 30s, who was a country guitarist until he heard Django
Rhinehart, And, like myself, Ron Smith took up Banjo late in life, and Annie, of
Annie' s Saints and Sinners" who already take their trad jazz to schools, for free,
As I see it, in this day and age there is no point in trying to educate new young musicians to New
Orleans Jazz, its like trying to educate them to Picasso, when Turner is easier to understand,
Picasso later, Better to give it them in a Dixieland style, a good strong rhythm section, a tune they know, a vocal,
a bit of comedy, make them take notice, after all we are entertainers,
I think there is a lot of encouragement out there, and instead of being negative lets pay tribute to those new" musicians, and those who help them on there way, a pat on the back is
what's needed, "Rise and Shine"
Bert Schroeder
Wirrorleans Jazz Band.
Now here's a thought for Jazz Promoters -
From The JIM CULLUM
JAZZ BAND
AND RIVERWALK, LIVE FROM THE
LANDING
Jim Cullum says, "At the Landing we are so pleased when the audience is full of kids. We're encouraging this, so for the rest of 2003 kids under 21 and their guests (up to 4 kids or adults) will be admitted at no cover charge. Wow!"
Dear Fred,
I don't think we have much to worry about, there are a good few young musicians on the way up. I recently heard Richards Bennett's band (now a regular down my end - Penzance) and was greatly impressed with their continually improving talent and great energy. It's just that as jazz, and particularly the more traditional styles, is no longer the flavour of the month, there are less young people starting off in this area. At Truro college, Cornwall (a last outpost, you might think, so it must be happening elsewhere), students can take a degree in jazz studies and this covers the whole jazz spectrum from early New Orleans on. The result is youngsters that can manage many styles and indeed two of their students have recently played with our band and proved to be not only technically excellent but also to fit the style. Of course it's now very difficult to make a living in the profession, even with the happily ever increasing festivals, and arts grants and subsidies only fund contemporary jazz music, so it's not so attractive to young musicians to play older styles. What we need is some attention from the tv and media, who at present do not seem to see audience ratings in this area! But I don't see doom and gloom, jazz will survive, I'm sure.
05/06/04 - Perhaps a bit late to comment but I've only just found your site. Yes most of the bands I see are mainly in my age group - pushing the 3 score years and 10 " limit " but our local club band has not one but two young tuba/sousa players and what about the likes of Adrian Cox, James Evans, Richard Bennett, Johnny Boston etc. Also please don't knock "THE GUV'NOR'S" legacy - OK the "mouldy figs" attached themselves to him but he was a great jazzman and so many people even today regard him as something very special - hence the still growing Ken Colyer Trust to which every jazz fan should subscribe if they care at all about the future of our music - who else runs an education programme in this field with workshops for young people?
Keep Jazz Live!!!!!!
Cheers Mike Tuckey
05/06/04 -
Hello there Fred,
I am so interested in your page about Jazz dying out. I had the same conversation with Tony at Holme Lacy! Some people were complaining that most of the music was not Trad Jazz but it was just a 'Jazz Festival'. Does not that cover so much? I believe we can pass this love of jazz down to our children by encouraging them to listen. My Uncle who lived with us had a band and two of my cousins and so I followed them and played piano in several local bands too. I have taught my Daughter and my Grandson and so that is my humble opinion-pass it on! One of the Trad bands I heard was a young band led by Andy Masefield- a wonderful trumpeter whose Dad also plays! Nat Gonella was quite young when I first met him in Liverpool and I am about to borrow his book soon. Sorry to take so long but it is so interesting this debate!
09/06/04 -
Quite right, Dorothy!
My two boys (aged 17 and 13) are learning guitar and drums respectively and have already played live gigs in bands somewhat removed from the jazz idiom (lol), but both have a healthy interest in my music and often come along to my own gigs. Hopefully, not too long then before they 'graduate' from 4 chords and a straight 8! It's up to us to encourage them with our own enthusiasm. I went to see Alan Beechey's band a week or two back and was highly impressed. Living proof that it's not going to die out. However, there is indeed a problem with jazz club venues where youngsters are put off by the sight of all us doddering grey hairs (in my case, no hair!) commandeering the tables and staggering around. This in part maybe to do with the modern family life style, as it would seem to be increasing rare for 3 generations to be seen together except at events like weddings. When we do play at weddings, and this is happening increasingly more often, most of the kids love the music and come up and tell us. Keep on blowing!
10/06/04 -
The vast majority of young jazz musicians have no interest whatsoever in playing traditional jazz. This is not a matter of peer pressure and the desire to play a fashionable style, it is simply that they do not like the music. It does nothing for them. They get no kick out of it. It does not move them. They may pay lip service to Armstrong or Beiderbecke or Bechet etc., but they do not enjoy listening to them or feel any affinity with their playing. As I said, almost dead.. - Dave Davis
15/06/04 -
Hi Fred,
Certainly young music college and degree course students are hardly likely to be interested in playing earlier forms of jazz, after all, they are going to be the new professionals, and like the Marsalis's, for instance , will only re-visit the past in order to re-work elements of it into their music. And rightly so, if jazz is a creative art form then it must progress to stay alive at all. The great trad boom, when kids identified with 'trad' as a rebellious music to drive their parents ( mostly brought up on a diet of Bing Crosby and Doris Day ) completely mad has gone for ever, never to be repeated, soon replaced by rock and roll and all its later derivatives. However, there are plenty of youngsters who are leaving school having learned to play an instrument. They have no intention of making music a career, but may well find playing occasional gigs for fun and a little pocket money an attractive option away from their daily business. These are the kids who may never reach great technical competence, but whom we should be encouraging. New Orleans style is a great entry level music, where it is possible once you have learned the tune and the chords to go out and play with other people and gain a lot of enjoyment. I feel that we should avoid making this music a clique, worshipping at the shrine of the 'greats' to the exclusion of everything else, and looking down on the music of today's youth. Above all, we should make sure our music sound fresh, with drive and enthusiasm, not plod along happily with the same old stuff and never make the effort to learn a new tune. That's the only way to get youngsters' interest. I will always find time at the end of a gig to talk to interested kids, and I never start by denigrating the music of today, that puts them off straightaway! Older style Jazz is at its best, when a tight and swinging rhythm section pushes the front line to get up and attempt something exciting that they might not try sitting on the same old chair plodding on week by week.
No-one can bring back the "golden days of Trad", the market isn't interested. Today's kids are sold a complete lifestyle package with their music. All you can sell with trad is nostalgia so it can't happen. But we can all still keep it alive with a little effort. I am just as happy to go out and play a
New Orleans, Dixie, Swing, Mainstream or a modern gig, but whatever it is, I'll try and make it swing as long as I can still play. Forget the doom an' gloom , just get on down an' do it! Solid, Jackson! 4 in a bar!
Brian Ellwood.
Jimmy Smith (11/08/04)
I personally think that in this day and age, there is simply no longer the same demand for New Orleans, or Dixieland music, as say in the 50's or early
60's. Those Halcyon days are sadly gone for ever.
Lets face the music, and admit that there are not enough younger people either performing, or listening anymore. The fact remains that the majority of fans in a jazz audience are in the 50-65 age group. Another prime factor in this demise is that there are too many bands chasing too few venues, resulting in most
jazzmen turning out for peanuts. This situation is nothing short of scandalous considering the inflated fees that third rate DJ's
receive, but sadly this is just a case of supply and demand in today's climate.
I find myself reluctant to be embroiled in the Ken Colyer controversy, suffice to say that Ken gave all of us young budding jazzmen a lot of pleasure and inspiration. Ken would not have called himself a great trumpet man, but nevertheless he was a great jazzman with a heart in the right place and fully deserved the acclaim he
received. My only gripe concerning the "Die Hard" New Orleans fans, is their reluctance to appreciate other styles of
jazz which stretch beyond the boundaries set by George Lewis, Bunk Johnson, Jim Robinson etc. All good guys of course, but Louis, Jelly Roll, Coleman Hawkins, and a host of other Greats sets standards that will last for ever.
It isn't a crime to be able to read the dots and changes, appreciate great saxophones, and play in tune. What the heck, if a band swings and does its best, who cares if its "Authentic" of not.
Regarding the current state of our music, I really don't think there has been much improvement over the years, and in a lot of instances, it has gone backwards. With a few exceptions. Most bands don't rehearse, so the standard drops. Consequently the few remaining jazz fans are subjected to a catalogue of hackneyed numbers,
i.e.: Saints, Indiana, Basin Street etc, etc. Until they are completely blasé
In conclusion, I would just like to say that I've nothing but admiration for the guys who try to keep the music alive (this includes you Fred). Its just a pity they don't receive the appreciation their efforts deserve.
Jimmy Smith - The Northern Jazz Allstars
Hi Fred,
I, too, would have to agree with Andy MacKenzie on the issue of younger musicians not being given enough encouragement within the Trad scene, this is why the youngsters go on and play other forms of jazz or go even further afield playing other types of music. That's not to say that there aren't any musicians who push people like myself as is evident from the likes of Tim Colwell and John Howell. I, like Andy, play Trombone and have also been fortunate enough to land a regular gig on a
Monday night with the Wall City Jazz Band in Chester, thanks to a great bunch of musicians who gave me a once in a lifetime opportunity of playing with a well established band (they've been playing for 52 years now ). I hope I play jazz for that long! However, my main gripe is the fact that, from the age of 23, I was really beginning to find my feet but, perhaps partly due to location ( I live in Crewe ), I was not getting enough opportunity to play. I then did a two year college course and, as a result, my playing suffered. I tried to do something about it after the course finished getting some work with my own band and then being asked to play regularly at The Malt Shovel in Altrincham on a
Wednesday night ( Billy Mayers Dixieland Stompers ). It is only now, however, thanks to Tom Jones( Trumpet ), Paul Blake ( Clarinet ), Mal Pendry ( Bass Guitar ), Don Lambert ( Keyboard )and Billy Buck ( Drums ) from the Wall City, that I feel that I am beginning to find my feet
again.That's 10 year's I wasted! So come on guys! If you see a young kid walk up to the band who thinks that what you're doing is something wonderful encourage and nurture them. Even if they don't follow in your footsteps at least you've given Trad, Dixieland, New Orleans ( call it what you will ) Jazz a fighting chance!
Rob Handford, Trombonist with the Wall City Jazz Band
Its OK for us older jazz musicians worrying about traditional jazz dying, the vast majority of us are around the age of the audience....that is knocking on a bit. I feel sorry for the few younger guys playing our music, in a few years they wont have an audience to play to.....hopefully this will change and a younger generation will begin to appreciate the music.
Barrie Marshall
Sun Street Stompers
Many of the comments on this page refer to there being not enough younger trad jazz musicians playing this kind of music. Well to turn the discussion around I'm a 38 year old trumpet player with a comparatively young line up (mostly), which plays around the Lancaster area. At a recent gig only 2 people turned up till gone 10 pm and thereafter another half dozen , so why should I keep playing trad jazz with audiences like this? When a lot of people moaned about venues falling by the wayside, where were you? We are here to play for you, but you are not here to listen , support and keep our interest!
Danny Riley
I am a 29 year old jazz vocalist who loves to sing trad, most of my friends ask me "Why don't you sing something else?" But why should I? Its what I like to do the most. On the subject of people not turning up to gigs, the Lune Valley Vintage Jazz Band played at the Flag in Garstang a week last Monday a night we managed to secure after the success of our gig at the Garstang arts festival and we got about eleven people in which was disappointing considering we had a full pub the week before. We are there again on the 25th October and hopefully we will be able to turn it around! I can honestly say that I have always received huge amounts of support and advice from the older musicians in the trad fraternity and for this I am very grateful
Hi Fred,
I feel I must agree with Andy Makenzie in that as a youthful 42 year old, I have found some people in the world of Jazz to be unhelpful, and even downright rude,(although these rude ones are thankfully a small minority). I know what he says, and I have experienced people who you would really want to help you to learn your trade, looking down their noses at you because you don't play in the style they think you should be! I might add, mostly the poorer players, as the better ones seem to be the ones wanting to share ideas, and encouragement! How are younger (and this probably doesn't include me now!!) players going to further their experiences, when faced with the, "You're not welcome" brigade! On the other hand, I have met many really nice people just because I try to play the trumpet, and I hope that some musicians will wake up to the fact that if kids are not encouraged to play with bands, or face a frosty reception, this great music will fade away in this country. How else are they going to learn the many wonderful tunes and arrangements, because funnily enough, they just aren't played on the radio at peak listening times anymore. Andy Makenzie is a fine trombone player, and I've had the pleasure of standing alongside him on a couple of occasions. So, please don't turn your nose up if someone under 42(I have to say thay don't I) is wanting to play jazz, and lets encourage people to play melodic types of jazz, not just rehersed licks, and scales in as many keys as exist! Many thanks, and best wishes to anyone trying their best!!
Andy Henderson, sometime bugle player of
St.Helens.
22/10/04
Your correspondence about young musicians is interesting.
We have Andrew Mackenzie at the Star sometimes and also Suzanne Fonseca and Mike Pearson's not so old (all trombonists
incidentally). It's great to see and hear these young musicians. In this connection, I'm attaching a couple of photos I took
last month in France. The first is of a super band of relative youngsters from Montpellier playing a brand of Afro-jazz which was very
enjoyable. They were called L'Orchestre Populaire de Montpellier. The other one is of a
Django-style duo of terrific technique and musical appeal. pla
ying
by the Mediterranean in Collioure. I do think that youngsters are more open to jazz
on the continent, although that doesn't necessarily mean traditional jazz.
Also, there are plenty of young jazz musicians in this country, but, the Richard Bennett band apart, they tend to play a much more contemporary form
of the music. Like your correspondent Jimmy Smith, I find the 'wrinkly trad' phenomenon a bit baffling. Why does traditional jazz in
this country for the most part only appeal to people of advancing years, and why do so many of
those fans of advancing years have no ear for other styles of jazz? It's all very well worshiping at the shrine of Bunk Johnson and George Lewis, and
setting Ken Colyer at the pinnacle of British jazz, but to believe that that is the only authentic form of jazz is rather blinkered, to say the
least.
Keith Allcock
23/10/04
Dear Fred,
Delighted to see the subject rages on. 'Twas ever thus with Jazz and rightly so. The music goes on and changes constantly and I have now been listening - and hopefully contributing slightly - for nigh on sixty years (phew!).
My great love is - and probably always will be - the classic Jazz of the mid period. By this I include Bix, Louis -In ALL his manifestations! - Dodds, Noone, Bechet, Ellington - especially with Hodges, but not really the efforts at "serious" pieces, Mulligan, much Getz and much of
Parker/Diz.
What I don't like is pretension in any form or unthinking prejudice which rejects out of hand certain musicians/instruments. e.g. Colyer, Bird, Humph, Kenton, saxophones - apart from sopranos, banjos, soprano saxophones. You get my point?
I do have great faith in the lasting power of the music - you gotta don't you?
Three cheers for Beechey & co - and "young" Andrew MacKenzie....don't go Andrew!
Tony Davis.
23/10/04
Dear Fred,
I’ve just read Andy Henderson’s piece. I couldn’t agree more, and I’ve got a bus pass!
Frank Slater.
23/10/04
I can't pretend that my answer to the question "Why do so many of those fans of advancing years have no ear for other styles of jazz?" will apply to all, or even the majority of, lovers of trad jazz but my personal answer is simply that I am not very musical and find the newer styles more difficult, if not impossible, to follow. My tastes in classical and pop music are similarly restricted. I was led to this realisation by seeing the other side of the coin when I took the very musical daughter of a friend to hear trad jazz for the first time (Yorkshire Post Band) and she was unimpressed, commenting on how simple the music was. She prefers modern jazz - and Shostakovich!
Regards Malcolm Bridge
24/10/04
Hello Fred and all you doom and gloomers out there,
The problem with the Doom and Gloom musicians contributing to this page is that they don't know the scene. You don't go to a jazz club, horn in hand and expect to get a sit in with an established band. Life has changed from the '60's when most bands comprised young musicians who played simply for the hell of it and were pleased to invite sitters in. That's how I got on to the Dixieland scene. Would you believe-the best bands of today have organised a programme, rehearsed, worked out key changes and in view of the peanuts they're getting for the gig, flog their CD's to their fans. Let me ask a question to these aspiring doom and gloom jazzmen. Do you take a copy of the chord changes to the gig with you? Can you explain to the guys in the band what you are going to do to start/finish the tune. Even if you
want to play a blues, there has to be some sort of 'shape' the band and the audience can recognise. Looking back on it, would the 'Beatles' have invited a young aspiring guitarist to join them for a 'blow'? Fancy sitting in with the Bryan Jones Big Band for a few enlightened choruses? Try your musical talent with Mart Rodgers Band for 'Snake Rag'? Suggest playing something that Kenny Dorham or Neville (I've forgotten my glasses) Goodwin don't know with the Chicago Teddybears? No chance sunshine!!
So get your own band together. Work hard at getting gigs like Mart, Brian Singleton and Colin Mason do. Sure, it's a grind. You'll play to ten people one night and if you're any good, next time there'll be twenty, next time more.
Any working Jazz Band jealously guard their residencies. They've worked hard at their craft and they ain't likely to let some guy or gal to mess up their carefully rehearsed session. Things have changed since the '60's when there was an audience and there was loads of work for Traditional style bands. Out there in the audience there could be a Wedding gig, a Retirement gig or even a local Radio gig in the offing. It's a very hard world for jazz bands in the Big Wide World. If you're good enough you might make it. If not, keep practicing. Maybe one of these days....................................
Ian Royle
24/10/04
Dear Fred,
I do hope that Ian Royle has not misunderstood my point, I, for one, do not turn up with horn in hand expecting to sit in with established bands. If I'm asked to, then fine, if not I'll stay and listen if I can. The whole point though, is about younger players being able to learn about the music, changes, endings, etc, because unfortunately, when certain people fall off their mortal coil, who is going to step into the breach? I agree that people have to form their own bands, and get their own gigs, but sometimes, when you do get a gig, certain players do look down their noses at you, because you are under pensionable age! As I said in my previous message, most people accept you for what you are and do, and try to be helpful,thankfully! Thanks once again,
Andy Henderson.
26/10/04
Hi Fred.
How can anyone think that Ian Royle's comments in
doom and gloom are helpful or constructive in any way. I OBJECT TO BEING CALLED SUNSHINE and the comments about not knowing about the chords or were to start and stop in a piece are ,
Ii feel , insulting to me and any of the other younger
contributors to this debate.
Around Lancaster sitting with a band is encouraged - AND IF IT WERE NOT FOR THIS I WOULD NOT HAVE PROGRESSED IN JAZZ AS I FEEL I HAVE.
Danny Riley
26/10/04
I would just like to say I have seen some really good Young Musicians like Andy Masefield and people like Digby are not exactly Ancient. Any way when we are older we have had lots more practice! I had a young lady came to play duets with me on her Clarinet and Saxophone. She is a music teacher at Hull University. We played all kinds of Jazz old and modern. I cannot see what difference the Age makes. Cheers for now and Thanks so much for a very interesting debate.
I have a band in Lancaster (The Sun St Stompers) that has been playing at the John
O'Gaunt pub for eighteen years, my main criteria when I started it was that it would be a session for people to sit in, you ask anybody who goes there they will tell you what a fine session we have, we have singers and musicians from the very best to the to be honest terrible but nobody is discouraged, in fact some of the terrible ones are liked and popular, if they are not of the highest quality we let them do one, but over the years we have encouraged some youngsters who have gone on to be good, I will name names.
Adrian Wilkinson who came as a very young man to sit in on clarinet, I believe he was going to be a chemist, he went on to Leeds College Of Music he is now a full time working musician playing and leading big bands touring England and Europe.
James Swinnerton (Jack Swinnerton's son) started coming along and we asked him to sit in on clarinet or Double Bass with us, he eventually became our regular bass player, I encouraged him to go beyond us and he is now playing for the likes of Martin
Bennett and Rod Chambers.
Danny Riley he began to sit in with my band and Alan Duckles' New Riverside Jazz Band, he now runs his own band in Lancaster.
More musicians who have been influenced by me letting them sit in with my band and
others (see below) and have improved to become good jazz musicians/singers.
.
Sue Parish (now has her own very well established band)
Michael Howard, a Rock/Glam Rock guitar player who now plays jazz well, and is my regular guitarist
John Moore, a professional folk musician and Sue Parishes partner who has turned into a tasteful jazz guitarist running his own band.
Neil Harrison, now a fine gypsy Jazz guitarist.
And there are others coming along.
I think I have made my point.
I would like to mention two other musicians in Lancaster who run bands and let all the people mentioned here sit in, Alan Duckles and Bob Moffat.
Barrie Marshall
26/10/04
My six pennorth also:
I agree completely with Andy Henderson's comments and was rather sad to hear Ian Royle's dismissive attitude, especially from such a fine player. I've always tended to think that intolerance came more from less able musicians.
If anyone would like to come along to The Westminster Hotel in City Road, Chester on a Thursday evening, then the Phoenix Jazzmen would be delighted if he or she would sit in for a couple of numbers. That's how I began with the Liverpool Savoy letting me play piano with them. I was then sufficiently optimistic to start up a band (the fairly short-lived West Coast Jazzmen) from scratch with similarly inexperienced friends such as Jon Critchley. But without the opportunity of sitting in with an established band, starting your own is a minefield and I believe we old gits should all be tolerant enough to put up with a few wrong notes from beginners in exchange for the chance of seeing a new jazz musician getting a start to replace us when we've all croaked - which won't be that far off! The only danger, I guess, is that some of them might blow us off the stage!
There's too much silly elitism in amateur jazz. I enjoy playing in a rock band as well as in the Phoenix and Big Easy, which information should be enough to produce a few snorts of disgust and palpitations in the old brigade.
Cheers,
John Hill
26/10/04
Dear Fred
What a lively and entertaining debate! I have to say that I concur heartily with Danny and Barrie, who exemplify the Lancaster jazz ethos of mutual
support. I am truly grateful to the local musicians who allowed me to sit in on their sessions and learn my craft. If they hadn't I
wouldn't now be able to earn my living at it - and to offer paid work to other musicians (of
all generations!).
As for sit-in musicians taking along their chords as suggested earlier - it might be appropriate if you want to play something particularly off the beaten track, but if it's a tune everyone knows in a key everyone knows - as it should be if the sitter-in has scoped things out a bit in advance - it probably isn't really necessary. There are, in any case, many fine players who don't read, but play by ear. Some of the best music I've heard comes from exploring a core of material we all know inside out, love playing and use as a springboard for creativity as much as we can.
I know there are some gigs where it isn't appropriate to ask to sit in - but
thank heavens there are musicians offering support to the next generation. If they don't, there might not BE a next generation.
Sue Parish
27/10/04
Hi Fred, I must say that I find Ian's comments a bit surprising. Obviously whether you invite some-one to sit in may well depend on the venue, and certainly you can not expect absolutely any-one to improvise on or read and play charts they have never ever seen and make a great
job. If people are paying you big money for a show, then you need to be careful about performance standards, but local jazz clubs, in my opinion, should encourage sitters-in whenever possible. How else are you going to learn? Playing jazz tunes with a mate in your living room (which I did in my teens) is nothing like playing with a live band in front of a real audience. Nothing like that for sharpening up your performance. And I must say I'm grateful that some well known musicians have graciously invited me to sit-in with them in the past, put up with my playing, and encouraged me with welcome advice afterwards. Even If you have a special set, what's wrong with giving some-one a chance with a number they know, even if it's a simple standard old blues?
For me, jazz is a lot about improvisation and interpretation for which arrangements provide the backbone. I certainly don't want to hear a note for note unchanging perfect performance of the same material night after night, I did all that playing in dance bands. Even great musicians playing jam sessions have at times produced some awful performances, but they have also produced some of the most sublime and unrepeatable music. Just give younger players a chance when you can whatever the style of the music and encourage them. I've nowt else to say
on t'matter.
Hi Fred,
May I say how wholeheartedly I agree with Ian Royle’s comments regarding new musicians, sitters in and the need for bands to protect their hard won residencies, a situation compounded by the tendency of the less competent amateurs (particularly those with advanced musical educations) to think they know everything about the music and its market. It is arrogant in the extreme for “young pretenders” to think they can merely turn up and hijack another musician’s residency, when the music as we know it was created by the established musicians and it is only right and proper that it should die with them!!! To the young musicians out there, get your own bands together if you are still interested, but you won’t get any help from us….. You’re simply not our type! ….. so keep out of our hair…. What’s left of it!………If you can’t get any gigs, then get a proper job! I think that we, established, players should award ourselves a pat on the back. The noticeable shortage of young musicians shows just how effectively the strategy is working! Keep it up.............. Does anybody realise how difficult it is to type an e. mail with one hand while using the other to jam your tongue as far into your cheek as it is physically possible?
On a more serious note, however, It is time this debate happened in anger to clear the air if nothing else. My own band “The Rioters” (one of the younger bands) has two residencies, both in younger peoples’ pubs. When we started, our audience consisted of the usual jazz crowd. After we had been playing there for a short time, we noticed a good number of the younger customers cocking an ear in our direction and often making requests…….. Now, significant groups tend to stay for the whole evening, mainly to listen to the band. It is interesting to note just how often we get asked “Is this Jazz?………. I always thought Jazz was the boring c**p you get on the radio”.
It is desperately important that new musicians receive the same chance we had, and it is very rewarding when new players appear ….. If at all possible, we make damn sure they get the best blow circumstances allow. Jazz is a very neglected part of our culture. We cannot own it, but are merely its custodians for the time being, with responsibility for ensuring its wellbeing, maintenance, evolution and continuance……. It is imperative that we encourage the young as much as possible, or jazz will have nowhere to go when we have finished with it, and that would be criminal.
With the pop music scene in its current pitiful state, and a significant number of young musicians e. g Jamie Cullum/Norah Jones/Claire Teal etc making jazz-like recordings, it should benefit all of us who encourage younger musicians to redouble our efforts while the ground is more fertile than it has been for many years....... Long may the debate rumble....... Long may people play the music.
Jeff Lewis
Trombone - Rioters Dixieland Jazzband
Just a quick add on to this current debate and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Ian Royle just a guest when he plays with the Pendle Jazzmen? In my book that makes him a SITTER IN also.
Danny Riley
28/10/04
Re: The Ian Royle Strand of Gloom.
It is self evident that the local jazz scene will wither and die overnight without sessions where aspiring jazz musicians, young or old, can sit in. Nothing lives if you cut the heart out. The problem that I find unfamiliar in Ian Royle's original email, is of a gig where hundreds of young musicians are blocking the doorway with their instrument cases and begging to sit in. I can only speak for the way it is up here on the North West Frontier
(Lancaster), but it is usually quite clear whether the gig falls into the "Sit In" variety, or the "performance" type. For instance, no one dreams of turning up at Kendal jazz club and asking to sit in, and if they did, I speculate they would be told "No, but here are the local sessions where you can." If there are no sessions in Ian's neck of the woods, maybe he should start one. This would kill two birds with one stone. Firstly he could pass on his expertise to others, and secondly the solution to his problem would be simply to say "No, but..."
Cheers, Jon Moore
ps. I would like to put on record my thanks to all those in the exceptionally supportive Lancaster, Morecambe, and South Lakes jazz scene who welcomed me, and gave me a chance, when I moved here ten years ago. You know who you are!
Pardon my ignorance. Who is Ian Royle and what is he trying to defend?
In any bands I've played in or with, the rule has always been if it's a club or pub session sitters in are welcome. If it's a formal concert or dance then sitters in are not normally encouraged. I just spent three weeks in New Orleans where
thankfully musicians don't put music in pigeon holes and was privileged to sit in with some of the finest musicians in the city. Tim Loughlin, Jaques Gauthe, Shannon Powell and an encouraging number if younger musicians in their twenties and thirties most of whom are
schooled musicians with the knowledge and technical ability to play in a variety of styles as required be it traditional
, be-bop, jazz funk, R&B or whatever. (If you want to know where I'm coming from check out the trumpet player Jamil Sharif on
Google). Traditional Jazz abroad is still developing and it seems to me gaining popularity with a younger audience as I noticed this year at the isle of Bute and Malmesbury Jazz festivals. Personally I find non Jazz audiences such as we find at Weddings and Birthday parties more appreciative and
enthusiastic than many who call themselves Jazz Fans and who are only prepared to listen to echoes of the past.
Nick Telfer
31/10/04
Dear Young Doom & Gloomers & especially Jazz Bands everywhere
I agree in part with what Doom & Gloomers say about not being given the chance to sit in with Jazz bands, in order to learn the first few steps in mastering the craft - the finality of it all being a very long and tortuous journey requiring not only a damned good ear but also, a fair knowledge of chords and unfailing stickability. Since the late 50s, I did it without the chords, because I was a natural musician who heard chords without having to think about them, so long as I knew the tune and what key we were in. Nevertheless, I have played along with some of the best Jazzers on the British Jazz Scene and some Americans and other foreigners. I won't name-drop, except for Ian Royle, who is relevant here; it would be unfair to name-drop, but I have travelled half way around the world playing Jazz, and only recently in my 60s did I start to consider chords, because I now want to write Jazz. All the same, how my lifelong friend and colleague, veteran trumpet player Ian Royle - who long ago surpassed my meagre musical abilities - must have suffered in the past (thankfully in silence!!!), with my many, many failings, when we played all those gigs at the Cavern, Liverpool and in and around Manchester, together for many years. We still coincide on gigs even today and he's still talking to me, at least!, though his musical stature now dwarfs and humbles mine and me; to be perfectly honest, his prowess now intimidates me - and that ain't good for good Jazz, one needs to feel relaxed and unrestrained for Jazz, and at least equal. Andrew MacKenzie and Rob Handford (trombonists), I agree with practically everything you say, and have always had problems with 'purists', Andrew, (because I played 'saxophones and flute' as well as other reed instruments in the 60s, and in some bands they were definitely not wanted). That went for the music too, the tunes and styles; for years I was dictated to, as to what instrument and what style I should play ensembles or solos on; it doesn't make for good Jazz. You are not being yourself. It is still done now. But, now in my late 60s I've decided to play ME, as I like to. I love bossa novas and ballads, and Jazz waltzes, as well as the lovely Modern Dixieland numbers that hardly ever get played (by Teagardten, Bob Crosby, Carmichael, etc.). It's all Jazz, and I love variety. I think Rob Handford knows; we played a few times at a club in Chorlton and other places. He and Rebecca "Hats" McShane turned out to be two very promising musicians who were GIVEN A CHANCE very recently in Al Yates's band. (if only Rob wouldn't smoke those terrible cigars on stage!!!).
However, I also, in part, agree with what Ian Royle has to say about the matter of expecting to sit in, without some sort of pre-written chord charts to offer the rhythm section at least. Although I used to do that in the not-too-distant past, because I hadn't the first clue about harmony or how chords were formed, now I certainly make sure that I have several tunes that I might wish to play on a gig with chord charts for piano, guitar/banjo and bass, and sometimes for front-line musicians, too, who must rely on the chords. It's only fair, boys and girls out there!
What I suggest is a combination of resignation and great courage to go on, but especially to listen to the greats and play along with them at home, and practise many tunes in many different Jazz styles and approaches, on disc, cassette, DVD, etc., before you try to sit in. A fantastic degree of experience can be gained by doing that; at least you will have done something to prepare for what you have set out to do. Taking one of Ian's points, however draconian you may think his suggestions are; form your own band with musicians who, like you, are just starting out. You can make mistakes to your heart's content at a friend's home, or in a garden-shed, etc. There would probably be no one there to laugh at your failings but yourselves - the ideal arrangement. Who wants to be laughed at? Imagine how you would feel and be put off forever from playing Jazz, if laughed at in public when making a terrible sound or being a semitone off-key, etc., - at a Jazz venue, where people will remember for months or years what you did. You learn from those mistakes, but at home, you're doing it in a controlled environment, in which you aren't jeopardising anyone's chances of sounding good - and bookable. This also applies to you, not just to the established bands; you've already set out on that long road. I think that's commendable and, of course, I think it should be encouraged, and certainly not discouraged. We all started off that way - whether it was in the 60s or the 80s - and I don't see what "real" harm it can do (even if you have the worst ear in the world, BUT provided that everyone is fully aware that you are not part of the regular, resident band) if you were to be allowed to sit in (during a special 'slot', along with other sitters-in) for just 2 numbers. The rest of the time, you spend listening to the guys who think they're the experts. Some of us are far from it, including myself; we're not all brilliant like Ian Royle, Roy Williams or Johnny Barnes. Let me tell you, some may be very, very good, but no one is the ultimate expert. WE ARE ALL OF US, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, STILL ON A VERY-HARD-TO-FULLY-ACHIEVE LEARNING-CURVE.
Yes, as Ian Royle rightly suggests, Jazz musicians have a hard time finding gigs nowadays, so they want to ensure that they don't lose what little they get by letting someone who is highly inexperienced, by comparison, sit in and - perhaps by their inability to play all parts of the right chord - make the band sound so discordant that any potential booker is put off from hiring the band for a well-paid gig or series of gigs. Such trade-protective methods are, up to a point, understandable. However, we don't all think the same way as Ian does; I for one, if I ran my own band (no time these days, unfortunately), I would be the first to welcome ANY sitters in. I fully recognise that one has to provide the experience so that YOU can become our replacement for the future - provided that you can play (and, believe me, WE NEED YOU TO REPLACE US - YOU ARE THE FUTURE OF JAZZ - we are all dying out, let's face it!, but the JAZZ doesn't need to!). I agree with Ian and many others; it isn't like it was in the 60s, when anyone could roll up with an instrument and perhaps get to sit in for the whole of the 'middle-set', or at least 3 or 4 numbers, the norm tending to be 2, but for Heavens' sake, bands out there, remember how WE all started out and GIVE THESE YOUNGSTERS A CHANCE; if they're terrible, or
excruciating, discreetly terminate their sit-in after one number, but please don't turn them away before they have a chance to prove that, with practice, they might one day be the stars that we all wanted to be, but which some of us never became! Ian, can I have a sit-in; just half-a-number - he asked ever so humbly ? ... Oh, well! .......
Yours sincerely
Joe Silmon-Monerri ("Joe Silmon" - somewhere in Manchester)
31/10/04
Appendix
Dear Fred
I'd just like to add a vote of thanks, as an "appendix" to my recent contribution to the DOOM AND GLOOM debate, especially to the first few people who gave me a CHANCE to show what I could do, from 1958 onwards, following demob. from the RAF. Some are now sadly dead, but they helped to open the doors to Jazz for me.
Veteran banjo-player Johnny Tippett was the first to let me sit in with his band in early 1958. His band played at the old Manchester Sports Guild run by Jenks only, at that time, and then down Market Street, Manchester. Amazing though it may seem, in those days of "purist" mentality, I was allowed to sit in with only my tenor sax, i.e. not the clarinet, which I hadn't brought along anyway. Thanks John, you were taking a big chance!, but it has always been appreciated (not, perhaps, by the crowd!). My repertoir was very limited as regards what I later discovered to be the most popular foot-tapping Jazz form of the day 'Traditional Jazz', though I had been weaned mainly on Swing. What little I knew by age 21 when I first sat in with Johnny Tippett's band, after a series of initial pre-RAF and post-RAF lessons on clarinet with a wonderful Manchester teacher, musician and human being (Chick Purcell - who sometimes played alto with Billy May when he came over here), I had otherwise largely learnt how to play my instruments mostly from listening to Jazz on the radio and going to local concerts (artists such as: Benny Goodman, Buddy de Franco, Pete Fountain and our own Syd Philips, or Acker Bilk for clarinet; Coleman Hawkins, Gerry Mulligan, Stan Getz, Woody Hermann, and our British Johnny Dankworth, Tommy Whittle, Danny Moss and others for the saxes). During National Service (1956-58) largely at Henlow Camp, where years' previously two 'Dons' (Don Lusher and Don Lang of "Saturday Night Fish-Fry" fame - not Don Long this time) had been stationed with part of the regional RAF Central Band. Because I was a National Serviceman and not a Regular Volunteer, and although I could just about read, my forté being a very good ear, I would never have passed the relevant sight-reading tests, so I didn't even attempt to join the Station Band. Soon after demob, I had started a 4-piece band called The Clubmen, playing dance-music with a Jazz flavour. We spent more time rehearsing than doing actual gigs, but it was a start, and much better than the little bands I had played in at Henlow. It folded about mid 1958, through lack of interest; it was then that I heard that there was a Jazz Scene, with clubs and actual audiences in Central Manchester. The MSG was first on my list.
The next band to extend a welcome at the MSG was a band run by Alan and Keith Pendlebury (both sadly passed on in recent years, I was later with both in the "Zenith
Six", followed by a serious "bust-up" with Keith - but I forgave him many years ago, and I hope he forgave me too). This band had Johnny Tippett in the banjo seat. I think it was Keith's band, and Alan ran his own elsewhere. However, Tippett must have passed a comment to the Pendlebury brothers to the effect that, although I played a "dreaded" sax., I did have a good ear. To my amazement, I was actually called to the stand: "I believe we have a tenor-player in the house", one of them shouted into the microphone; after that, I became a regular sitter-in there, and at the Thatched House with Dizzy Burton's Jazz Aces, which had just lost Roy Williams and Mike Reddin to the Army - but like me, Roy sat in when on leave. The only difference was that he was already excellent then. I was at the embryo stage, but not too bad. Within the same year, I had become an almost recognised member of the Manchester Jazz Scene. I formed my own band, "Joe Silmon's Jazzmen" - after playing with Alan Royle's Blackfriars Society Orchestra (at the same Thatched House), moving later to the Black Lion, Salford. So, dear newcomers to Jazz, it can happen for you, too, if you're doggedly persistent! I hope circumstances will come about whereby you are made as welcome today as I was then, if not at one club, at least at another.
My thanks again to John Tippett, and to Alan and Keith Pendlebury who helped to make my introduction to Jazz so effortless. It is a sort of 'make-or-break" test-time; a time during which the sensitive may decide to give up. Dont!, just find another place, where the musicians and the crowd are more friendly and sympathetic to beginners. Such places do exist.
Every good wish for a successful Jazz career, out there! Thanks, Fred, for placing this selfish thank-you message, but I hope it will encourage our many younger friends to keep the flag flying.
Joe Silmon-Monerri
("Joe Silmon")
I just read Joe Silmon remarks on doom and gloom and his comment, "What I suggest is a combination of resignation and great courage to go on, but especially to listen to the greats and play along with them at home, and practise many tunes in many different Jazz styles and approaches, on disc, cassette,
DVD". When I started wanting to play, jazz clarinet jazz bands did not exist in
Morecambe. I listened to, and played along to, mainly the Chris Barber Pye/Nixa recordings, and the Bunk Johnson recordings that came out on
45rpm. I struggled without any advice from other musicians and I sat in with the these two bands, but today the youngsters
have CD players, tapes, and programs like Band In A Box for a computer that you can put the chords into and happily play along
too. One of the real problems with playing along to records was the keys would be about a quarter tone or more
out. Today you can record them onto your PC and use programs to slow them down without losing the key or change the
key. Also I did not have any chord books, bands have reams of them now which I find very useful as I am a chord player, new jazzers have much more help these days so perhaps the Doom And Gloom debate will
dissipate. Hopefully there are some young people out there in their early teens listening to New Orleans Jazz and wanting to play it, I am sure all is not lost, things do have a habit of going round in circles and past fashions re-appear.....all is not lost, DOOM AND GLOOM, don't be so ridiculous!
Barrie Marshall, an optimistic jazzer.
1st Nov 2004
When I started the "Doom & Gloom" controversy with an observation on the age of most players of and listeners to our music, I had no idea it would start even a brief discussion and I am astonished it is still a topic of comment and sometimes heated argument over two years later. However, it certainly proves that we feel very strongly about traditional jazz, and this alone gives me faith in the future.
In a recent email received from my friend and musician, Stuart Fawcett, he commented on how we, as young teenagers in the 1950s, used to gather in his Mum's front room in Morecambe, with Ron Blamier on piano, Alan Duckles on trumpet, Stuart on drums and myself on clarinet, and try to master the intricacies of "Darktown Strutter's Ball". His comment was that kids today wouldn't do that. My reply was that kids today do just that except that they try to play "Punk Rock" or whatever is the latest fad. In 30 or
40 years some of them may still be playing that same music.
We were reviving a music created before we were born. While it occasionally shows signs of fading it will never die. Someone sometime in the future will hear an ancient CD (or whatever records music in
2050) of "Melancholy Blues" and the sound of Armstrong from a distant past will rekindle a spark. It is not beyond imagination that a few friends may gather in a futuristic front parlor and try to recreate a new Hot
5 or 7. I have read letters from full-time professional jazz musicians moaning about how semi-pro groups play for less money and are getting all the work, but I believe these weekend warriors keep the music alive and create an audience for the well-known professional touring groups. I'm one of them and it certainly keeps me alive.
Hi Fred,
Enjoy your site very much - keep up the good
work, it's a real labour of love. However, the 'Doom & Gloom' debate (if that's what you can call it !!!) is making me feel very miserable.
I had always thought jazz was to be enjoyed but all this talk of it dying, esp. in its traditional
forms, is making me want to resign from the jazz 'club'. Maybe it's time to call a halt to it?
That's not to say that we shouldn't strive to find ways of encouraging young audiences and musicians.
Before you cut me off, however .......... I am the 'senior' member, the drummer, in
Jeff Lewis's 'young' band, the
Rioters Dixieband as referred to in his recent email to you. I mess up the average age of the band quite considerably
but I am 'young at heart'. I must agree with Jeff's comment about our two residencies in Crosby-there is a large contingent of younger people who come in and listen to the music at various time during the
night. Also, at other gigs, I
have noticed groups of young chaps standing near the band watching what's going on (and listening !).Some of them obviously say to others " ****** this ****,lets move on, and exert peer pressure on others in the group who would really like to stay and
listen. Quite often they come and talk to me about the music while I am setting up or packing
up. It's not as hopeless as some people make out !.
The problem is all about lack of sensible/reasonable exposure in the media. There is no street
cred. in jazz these days with all the hype re 'pop music'. It needs to be changed to give jazz a fair
deal. Maybe we should all write letters and keep on doing so until those 'in power' respond?
But ..... what is the scene like generally? Unfriendly musicians who do not like 'sitters in' except from their own
'mafia' group, audiences who book meals before the sessions and sit in the same seats week after
week, looking askance at any newcomers, bands mainly playing the same tunes in four/four with a plonking banjo creating a musical straightjacket and bands with different names but all using virtually the same musicians drawn from their own small coterie of
musicians. Is this likely to attract the young? Very depressing-it needs to change.
One of your correspondents is reported as saying the music was no good because it was 'simple' !!! Some of the best music in all fields has always been simple - 'fewest notes is best'
cf. Miles Davis, Mutt Cary etc. Maybe she ought to have listened more carefully.
Roy Swift
Drummer,Rioters Dixieband
(and many others over the years)
5th Nov 2004
Dear All,
This is a very interesting discussion and one which I can relate to. As a young-ish jazz musician (34), I agree and have experienced most of what has been discussed here. I have found it almost impossible to get a chance to prove myself. Over the last 10 years I have only ever been offered one single gig as a read player which was 3 months ago by George Tidermam, who is one of the few who have helped me out. Unfortunately he has just emigrated to Spain for the winter (just my luck)!
I have found that only playing the tenor sax did hold me back in the past. It is perceived in trad, that a reed player must double up on the clarinet. A strange concept as I don't remember any of the great reed players of the past doubling up! I now play the soprano, which is as close as I will get to a clarinet, but it hasn't helped me much. Quite the opposite. About 7 years ago, when I was, by my own admission, a bit of a raw talent, I would be called up for a few numbers on a regular basis which was great fun. Now that I have improved, (just to give you an indication, I can easily hold my own leading a 3 or 4 piece band) but those same musicians don't want to know anymore. Maybe they are intimidated by my new skills, or maybe they are just a bit older and more possessive about what they have got. It annoys me, however, when they console me with stories of how much easier it was in their day. Rub it in why don't you?
Martin Kloos
09/11/2004
Hi Fred,
My goodness, I have stirred up a hornets nest haven't I?
I haven't sent this before because I've just come back from a holiday on the Costa Blanca where I sat in with an excellent Traditional Jazzband at the Bolero in Calpe. I also sat in on the Rommy Baker Big Band rehearsal - they do regular once a month concerts at the Esmerelda Hotel in Calpe. Now I'm back, I'll be sitting in with the regular rhythm section at the Horseshoe, Alsager tomorrow night (Nov 11th).and (according to Danny Riley) sitting in with the Pendle on Friday. Where's this leading to?
Well, after printing out my original e-mail, I can't see how I've 'insulted' Messrs Henderson and Riley at all. All I've really said is that 'sitters in' should be competent as musicians and knowledgeable as to repertoire. If Danny Riley disagrees with this, as his e-mail of 26.10.04 seems to suggest, then I tremble for the future of the music. My expression 'No chance sunshine' was not addressed to Danny personally, but to any potential sitter in unaware of changes, key signatures, tuning etc. Maybe you get a better class of sitter in up in Lancaster, Danny! ( I've crossed Lancaster out in my list of 'potential sit-in'
Cities). Once again, returning to my original e-mail, "Get your own band together" - Danny, how is that not constructive? - you've apparently done it. "Keep practising" - What's not constructive about that? "Work hard at getting gigs" -well, don't you? I could continue but methinks several contributors to the 'take Ian's opinions out of context' protesteth too
much. I have a son, Tony Royle, in his early thirties. He's a very fine trumpet player and would never have got anywhere on the scene, just like myself, but for the generosity of bandleaders who let him blow with their bands. Once again let me emphasise my point about sitting in. Know exactly what you can do and what you intend doing with it. Simple, eh?
Apres moi, le deluge.
As a young (well 38) Jazzer who still occasionally blows I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring .......
Having a background in the 'Brassed Off' former coal fields of the North I was introduced to Jazz as a teenager by (the now sadly departed) Tyneside trombonist Ronnie McClean.
Led by a brass band friend (Phil Rutherford - now Sousaphone player with the West Jesmond
Rhythm Kings), we set up our own Jazzband - the Rickarton Junction Jazzband - who nobody will have heard of - but which included a young Jim Tomlinson (who now has his own section in the Virgin Records Jazz Department!) on clarinet and sax.
On arriving in North Wales I helped set up another band - Dixie Dilemma , and was responsible for recruiting a young (16 I think) clarinet player to the band, James Evans. We were later joined by a school friend of James from Bangor, Tom Kincade.
I now (very occasionally - since the demise of the Liverpool Arms, Menai Bridge gig) play in a band with other youngsters - Duncan Letchard
(Clarinet) and Charles from Llangollen (trumpet), mad Ed (bass) - as well as the very supportive Billy Edwards and
Malcolm Hogarth (and Duncan's dad, Rod, on drums). So there are younger players out there !
Having lived/ travelled overseas and heard a lot of younger (what I would call traditional)
jazz bands, their trick in attracting & entertaining younger audiences seems to be not being constrained by a particular style of jazz, but being willing - during a set - to switch between classic
brass band style marches (e.g.. South Rampart St. Parade) to straight R&B with a
Dixie rendition of Georgia Grind thrown in for good measure ! Their message would thus appear to be adapt or die !
Whilst purists may disagree, they probably would also have been against the development of ragtime and the blues into trad. !
Anybody read Stings autobiography ? He is probably the most famous trad jazzer after Louis Armstrong ! Listen to the chord sequences in Moon Over
Bourbon St and Dream of a Blue Turtle - his years on the Tyneside Trad Jazz seen appear to have left a lasting mark !
Tom Rippeth (of Northop, Flintshire)
17/11/04
Hello Fred,
As if its not bad enough that venues are closing, attendances falling etc, now we have musicians denigrating our wonderful exciting music. I recently went to hear a band composed of VERY good musicians who play a mixture of trad and progressive mainstream. The leader placed a pamphlet on every table which contained about 14 postage stamp sized portraits of famous Jazzmen which the audience were invited to identify during the interval.
When Miles Davies was identified the band leader said "the best Trumpet player of all time", and when Ken Colyer's picture was identified he said, "The worst trumpeter ever".
If that was not bad enough, later in the evening the Trombone player took the microphone and announced that he was about to play the, "Only decent thing Jack Teagarden ever played in his life, the introduction to Muscrat Ramble".
I appreciate that everyone has a right to their opinion but as a fellow musician you keep strong opinions like that to yourself. I will certainly not be going to hear that line up again. Incidentally i left a Mainstream band after 18 years to go back to my first love - Traditional Jazz.
Most criticisms have been fired from all quarters at Ian Royle - who is by no means the only person who should be targeted - there are countless bands and individuals up and down the country who refuse sitters-in, and if we analyse the matter carefully, Ian didn't actually refuse anyone! One reader put it very aptly, albeit in a totally different and possibly more complimentary context, when referring to bands out there: "you know who you are". The people in question may be, as suggested by several young critics, jealously safeguarding their gigs, and any sitter-in might threaten that state of well-being and DOSH!!! But most of such refusers are often also likely to refuse to answer questions asked by new musicians, regarding such simple things as "how do I tune up"?, "how can I find out what key I'm supposed to be playing in with the band"?, "how does one start off a tune in the right key"? and other such searching questions about chords, chord-books/charts and harmony in general. Such questions are important enough for the enquirer to require answers to. When they are not given, when a young person is fobbed off - or WORSE!!!, he or she will, naturally, be fairly wild about the situation, and goes off frustrated.
On the other hand, Ian Royle spends most of his working day teaching young musicians. He intermingles that with playing as many Jazz gigs (often alongside great Jazz musicians at home and abroad) as he can fit into his very busy teaching schedule at schools and colleges. So perhaps it should be borne in mind that, every day, he answers all the questions of young musicians of school and college age that the other refusers everywhere fail - by choice and lack of interest - to answer. Ian has, over some years, trained some of the finest young exponents of music (including Classical, Military, Brass as well as Jazz itself, in many other musical facets). I believe he makes them work hard, but he's no ogre. He takes a great deal of interest in moulding musicians from a 'no talent-but-slight-flair"situation into one in which the ex-student might well end up in a position of authority - such as Head of Music, Orchestra Leader, etc., but always as an excellent, highly trained, musician. Ian's achievements with young people are many. Ask Ian, and he will give you a long list, and he can prove his claims. Can we all leave him alone now, please? Let us all enjoy the coming Season in Harmony and Peace!
With every good wish for Christmas and a Bright and Cheery New Year for ALL!!!
Joe Silmon-Monerri
("Joe Silmon")
Thanks for that Joe, and I hope this puts an end to something that was getting a little too personal. I like to think that all Traditional Jazz people are kind and friendly, and come the day I have to start censoring these pages I guess I'll call it a day. Now let's get on with the discussion - Next Please.
For all your "Doom and Gloom" readers and contributors I will recommend that they look out for sixteen year old Amy Roberts from Penzance - Grade Eight standard flute, clarinet and alto sax, adding tenor sax and playing great New Orleans and Dixie with every visiting band - supported by the Ken Colyer Trust, she is just one of many talented young players to take jazz forward as the rest of us old 'uns drop off the end (not just yet!)
All good wishes for Christmas and New Year,
Regards, Dick and Jackie Chapman
Antique Six Jazzband
My daughter gave me a CD titled "Continental Stomp" by a Texas trio called The Hot Club of Cowtown. It's hard to believe so much music could come from just three young people. Sure, they mix in a bit of country western but, after all, it is from Texas. The tune list includes such oldies as "Deed I Do", "China Town", "I Can't Give You Anything But Love", "Pennies From Heaven", "After You've Gone", "Exactly Like You", etc.
I am now convinced that some younger musicians are going to keep our music alive and, hearing the applause of a very enthusiastic young audience on this CD, I am equally sure that there will an be an audience enjoying their efforts in the future.
Trevor Hodgson
Southern Comfort JB
Canada
Jimmy Smith (26/11/04)
I wasn't planning to comment in the "Doom and Gloom" debate again, but some comments made recently are in need of a response.
For a start, I would love to see a change to the heading from the downbeat "Doom and Gloom" to say " Hope and Glory". Considering the informative and sometimes hilarious comments made by writers, this would surely be more fitting.
These series of articles are becoming a particular highlight on the network. I for one am confident that there are plenty of positive ideas, and opinions to outweigh the negative.
Here are a few positives. I am quietly confident that most of us musicians, (after having our knuckles severely rapped), have practised diligently on knowing when to start and stop in a given number, negotiated basic key changes, tuned up our instruments, and kept a book of chord sequences tucked firmly in our back pockets when going to gigs and rehearsals. With this formidable armoury at our disposal, who knows what dizzy heights we can achieve?
Regarding the ongoing "sitters in" controversy, surely common sense should prevail. It would be pretty stupid for anyone to expect to be given a chair at a prestigious event, or with a band playing in concert. On the other hand, I don't think that any lasting harm would be done if a band playing a pub or club could perhaps reserve a twenty minute period for any genuine up and coming musician, to show what they could do. Who knows there may be a future star out there? Or at the very least some capable dep jazzman.
As an example of this, a couple of months ago I was invited to sit in with that fine New Orleans Band "The Savannah Jazzband". It was a privilege to play with some musicians, and in particular my old buddy of yesteryear Gabe Essien, (playing as usual, a fabulous clarinet). But I digress. The main event for me was when drummer/leader, John Meehan
introduced a twelve year old lad to sit in on drums. The little guy played wonderfully well, keeping good time and phrasing like a pro. The Bolton audience gave the lad a rousing accolade. Surely this is a step in the right direction?
Last weekend Kath and I went to see Colin Ball's new band "The Societe Promanaders" playing music of the Twenties. They were a revelation, dressed immaculately, and presenting their music with sheer
professionalism. It was a joy to hear some of the grand old numbers, beautifully arranged by Colin. "The
Syncopated Clock", "Theatreland" and more. Pure magic.
Keep practising and a Happy Christmas to everyone.
Jimmy Smith
There have been many
comments over the years about young people in jazz....can I recommend a Midlands
based Quartet who will set any jazz club on fire?! They are the Ralph Allin
Quartet with Ralph playing the most superb jazz violin, Rich Hughes making his
keyboard talk, Jadie Carey driving things along with her slimline bass and
swinging drums from Steve Street.
Ralph and the gang are really something special but are finding difficulty
breaking in to the jazz circuit (they are not a 6 piece band, don't have a banjo
and are younger than the usual "jazz band" average age of 72....could
this be the reason?!!!!).
Seriously they would grace the stage of any jazz club whatever the usual style
of music played there.....I have said on many occasions that Grappelli and
Reinhardt were hardly your classic jazz band line-up yet look at the legacy they
left.
If any club would like to take a chance with these four superb musicians there
is a link on the Jazz Club 90 website (http://www.jazzclub90.co.uk)
to Ralph's site.
Regards,
John Howell.
P.S. I must stress I have no connection with this band other than having them
appear several times at the Harp!
I am a 68 year old brass band and wind band musician and a trad jazz fan. Two years ago I decided to find out how Jazz musicians play without music. A weekend course with Owen Brice and weekly Jazz class with Bill Oldham has got me no further along the road to playing jazz. Dots are provided at the jazz class which is so boringly simple to play that I felt I was in a tune a day lesson. However trying to play the same music without dots is still beyond me. I am sure you have heard all this before. Jazz musicians learn the tunes, learn the notes of most of the chords, and spend a lifetime trying to create jazz. They get their music through their ears whereas I get my music thro' my eyes. This is why in twenty years time there will be no bands and no audience. Jazz musicians should stop griping about this because the answer is in their own hands. Teach people how to do it without having to go through a massive memory exercise. There has got to be a middle way.
I just once had the opportunity to play with a real trad band. That was at Annies at Bollington. I had with me the dots for BILL BAILEY.I only played when the tune was required, that is no solo from me.--- I thought all my birthdays had come at once. It was a great experience for a wannabe jazz player.
I now realize that if I were taught the riffs and twiddles etc. and tried them out with a proper band then even I at my age would eventually get some where with this playing without dots.
I am a competent brass player but looks stupid trying to play without music as I did at Owen Brice's course.( I was using a valve trombone)
05/01/06
Interested in your latest
e-mail comment on the decline of Jazz as we know it.
Have been thinking about this
for some time.
Haven’t you noticed, and
I’m sure that everyone has, that virtually every Traditional Jazz musician in
the
I finally concluded that this
was because they all became interested in The Music at the start of the UK
Traditional Jazz era – was it the 1950’s?
They then started to learn
instruments and form bands and kept on playing, and getting older, right up
until the present day – that “certain age”.
That’s why when I go to a
concert.................usually the Chicago Teds or Chris Barber, or one or two
others, almost without exception, not just the members of the Band, but the
audience as well, including me, are all of that “certain age!
Early last year I attended the
Merseyside Jazz Festival, and discovered with great enthusiasm - Dixi, - the
band from
But young people don’t play
jazz!
They have no interest in it
whatsoever, or so I thought!
So I talked to Vidar Norheim, (drums),
at length on the subject. He too had noticed the advancing years of our Jazz
instrumentalists, and in turn had wondered where the next generation is.
He told me that in
Why don’t our people talk to
their people to find out how they do it and learn how we can do it?
Maybe the ball can be started
rolling during Dixi’s
Well. I’ve already approached
Sale Conservative Club to try to organise tickets for Dixi’s concert on 31st
March, a little early yet, but hopefully I’ll be first in the queue when they
print the tickets..
Hope, maybe that throws a
little more light on the subject of ageing jazz musicians, who should
certainly be classified as endangered species.
Cheers!
John Bratby
(you
might be interested to read Annie's Saints & Sinners
band page, she's been going round schools playing jazz for some time now - Fred
B).
05/01/06
Hello Fred,
Firstly may I say how much I appreciate your tremendous Web-site – I visit at least once (sometimes two or three times) each day, and have always found it to be a great source of pleasure and information.
To David Fox, I would say:- I too am 68 years old, and am a reasonably competent trombone player. He should take great heart from the fact that he has learned to play his instrument properly and can read music; this is NOT an obstacle to progress; rather it is a GREAT BONUS. There are many excellent jazz musicians (locally, nationally and internationally) who are also more than competent and at home with other forms of music making. I am sure that your Website will attract a great response from many of these people – there is a wealth of talent and goodwill available, and their advice would be far more beneficial than mine.
However, I do have one piece of advice for David. There are some (just a few, but it sounds as though they have already started to get at David) who would seek to convince you that any form of theoretical/practical ability is an obstacle to creativity. DON’T believe them, David. You can already play, all you need is the confidence to have a go and somewhere to try it out (the latter might be problematic, as you seem to hint in your letter). You say you sat in with Annie’s Band. I’m sure she would have much good advice, as she had the courage to start quite late in life.
You can play your instrument – you are already more than halfway there.
As for feeling "stupid" - no one should be made to feel like this! We start from where we are at, and try to improve. It's all relative, otherwise, after Jack Teagarden, we would all feel stupid.
Good luck.
05/01/06
Thinking mainly of possible Jazz appreciation in the future - by existing youngsters, as listeners or as performers:
I asked my eldest son (who is only 24) when we were coming back from the North East on 27 December, what young people of his age feel nowadays about Jazz when they hear it live or recorded, etc., as a general
consensus, emphasising that he should disregard the fact that his Dad was a Jazzer all his life.
He said that they would normally pay no attention to it and that they generally think it's archaic, outmoded and some [who haven't yet realised that its now one of the 'Classics'] have suggested it should be scrapped altogether, because it no longer serves any purpose. The main reason my son gave for that approach was that, unless they can clearly recognise a tune (a melody line), that it means nothing to them - so have we Jazzers become too complicated? or are they insufficiently discerning? I still think that, like Love, it's here to stay!
Saludos amigo Fred,
Joe S-M
Hi Fred, and a happy new year to all Jazz lovers. Firstly, just to let you know, I have played a few times recently at the Marlborough on Seel street in Liverpool, with the Downtown Dixielanders band, and I have to say that the audience in the pub are of a really mixed age group. One thing I have noticed is that there are more people of "Student" age who are not only listening for a while, then moving on to another venue, but more of them that actually stay for most of the night. Of course they ask for the usual tunes, but why not, it only shows that the band can play them, and without music, too! Which brings me to the much tormented David Fox. Far be it from me to try to tell my elders (and mainly betters!), but it is just a matter of confidence. You are a competent player, so the most difficult thing is trying to shake off the shackles of "THE DOTS", not your obvious ability. I should know, because I am from a completely classical/military band background, and only really found jazz about fifteen years ago, so that would make me almost thirty at the time. My problem is learning as many tunes as possible, because my generation did not have the benefit of listening to them first hand, on the radio, etc. So what I have done, is set myself small targets, in regards to learning as much as possible, and when you've learnt one tune, just play it, even if it is really easy. That way it becomes familiar, and I think that when you know the tune, you can solo on it!! So you see, in my opinion Jazz is all about melody, and when you know that, you will hear the chord structure underneath. I suppose its all about the wider picture, as well, not just about one line, but as said, just learn the tune, its as good a starting place as any!!! Best of luck, and keep the faith, because it's well worth the effort, I just wish I had been around when Jazz was THE popular music!
07/01/06
On the subject of a decline in young jazz players...
As a qualified music teacher now visiting various schools and trying to enthuse kids about
music, I would say that unless something is radically altered there will be no musicians of any kind, trad, classical or whatever in a few years because of a total disregard for music within the education system even though it is a statutory subject...if something else needs to be done then music is the first subject to fall by the wayside and it makes me really sad.
On the subject of improvisation and learning to improvise I began to read music at the age of 5 when I learned to play the piano and continued to read music until the age of 24. Even when I played big band music I always gave the solo to someone else. However, after singing with a trad band and listening, listening, listening to other people and any
CDs I could get my hands on I found the courage to play a few solos and join in with some of the tunes and have done quite a few gigs now with the Lune Valley when our regular clarinet player is
unavailable. Whilst studying for my music degree I suddenly became known as "the person who
didn't do dots!!!". A cautionary note though...if you do learn to improvise make sure you keep up your reading skills as well because mine have gone to the dogs and I had a very scary experience when I went to sit in with the Lancashire Schools big band the other week and had a copy of Sing sing sing placed
in front of me!! and couldn't read it...I have
learnt to improvise by listening and not being afraid to have a go and this is the advice I would give to anyone else.
ROSIE HARRISON (Young Jazzer)
09/01/06
Hi Fred, Here's my pennyworth! As has been mentioned, I have been taking my band into primary schools for over four years. We chose to go to primary schools to catch the interest of children whilst they have an open mind about different music. The reception and feedback we get from the children (and most of the teachers) is fantastic, well worth just receiving our expenses. We have not been brave enough to tackle secondary schools, perhaps we should. If anyone would like to come to one of our school "gigs" they would be very welcome. Bring your instrument and join in!
I will always remember my first sit in with Billy Mayers band at the Malt Shovels! It was an amazing feeling and I was on a high for hours afterwards! The band was very patient with me. I
didn't know any of the protocols then and no one told me to get lost. We always welcome sitters in at Bollington (Dog and
Partridge) These days it is mainly a practice session- small audience, sometimes none, but we enjoy playing together ,the most important thing!
Back to the lack of interest from young people: we have also played at one or two weddings where we were booked by the bride and groom and receive much appreciation from the young guests. We have also played at a 21st party where several guests enjoyed the music so much they suggested there should be a local club where they could listen to this "retro music" I feel,
if we are patient (and live long enough) this music we all love will not disappear but will grow back in popularity. I think it has started already.
Annie ( Annie`s Saints and Sinners)
09/01/06
When I was bitten by the jazz bug back in 1954 I was too young to go to jazz clubs but there was quite a bit of jazz on the radio (Light Programme) and record shops stocked jazz records as a matter of course. In fact there was a tiny record shop near me where I picked up West End Blues brand new off the shelf. What I mean is that jazz was readily available to any 14 yr. old. Today jazz is hidden away in record shops in Specialist sections .There are still quite a number of jazz programmes on the radio but they have to be searched out. Given the number of commercial pop stations available to the youngsters it is hardly surprising they never get beyond them. At one of our recent gigs my grandson(18)and one of his friends came along and stayed for the whole 3 hours. Their verdict was" It was sweet" the current word for cool. What I don't know is how to get our message across to the young ones. If only 5% of the kids start to dig jazz our audiences would be assured.
Some time ago we did a Sat. night gig at a golf club. The average age of the audience was about 45(quite young!) At first they did not know what to make of us but by halfway through the first set they were tapping their feet and dancing. At the end of the evening quite a number of people were coming up to us saying how much they had enjoyed our music and what a pleasure it was to be able to talk without screaming at each other over the D. J. Years ago it was quite common for us jazzers to play for dancing at golf clubs halls 21st. weddings etc. after all jazz is first and foremost for dancing. It is a pity that promoters and people organizing "a bit of a do", don't look beyond the obligatory D. J. The punters might be in for a pleasant surprise. Here's Hoping!!
Continued ......................
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Read Part II
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